[Phil]

I didn't play this hand - it was given to me. The player bid 4♥ himself but thought that some sort of move was warranted. 6 was made when partner had the stone nuts: xx AKxx xx AKxxx. On a diamond lead you need 2-2 trump (IDK about the 9), but its excellent on a spade lead. On balance I think you do want to be there.

I told him that if you make slam tries hoping partner has the perfect maximum, you will get to many bad slams as a result, since your range for slam tries is widened.

I didn't convince him.

[PhilKing]

Phil, on 2012-November-29, 11:21, said:

partner had the stone nuts: xx AKxx xx AKxxx.

We have found him. 2♥ is the bid of a crazy man.

[Codo]

I am a crazy man too...

[han]

2H...

[FrancesHinden]

MrAce, on 2012-November-28, 12:48, said:

What would be the answer by your opponents that will turn you on for slam ? And what difference does it make when pd already bid 2♥ and you know that they have close to half of the deck regardless of how light or strong they make this dbl. If doubler is light his pd has the rest or vice versa. I believe this topic doesn't belong to expert forum but, since it is posted here, what kind of shape are you expecting to hear for their double. You know very well that it shows ♦+♠,he may even have 3 hearts that was not strong enough to dbl at the first place, he may have side clubs, or he may just be 4-5 in spades and diamonds.

I think PhilKing has been remarkably polite to you. You are the one who is showing your ignorance if you think we all "know very well" that double shows the pointed suits or that it might have 3 hearts not strong enough to double in the first place, because it's not what it means when I double. I play double specifically as 3-suited with short hearts and sound opening values, as do a lot of other people. You want to play it differently, good for you.

[Phil]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-29, 11:49, said:

We have found him. 2♥ is the bid of a crazy man.

It gets better. He suggested that the 2♥ bidder could have xxx AKxx x AKxxx

[lalldonn]

I would bid 3♠. I'm not looking for slam, I'm setting up a force and letting partner make a good decision if they are going to bid 4♠, whereas if I just bid 4♥ I won't have any idea what to do. I think partner should know that's often what these bids are for in competition. If he happens to have some great hand and go to slam on his own from there then it might make, though I'd probably not want to be there. But most likely he would bid 4♣ then pass my 4♥ bid.

Obviously his real hand was silly. As are the comments that this is the wrong forum for this hand.

[JLOGIC]

Against bad opps I sometimes XX to scare them lol but I would just bid 4H normally.

[the hog]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-29, 11:49, said:

We have found him. 2♥ is the bid of a crazy man.

I guess I am crazy as well.

[MrAce]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-November-29, 14:50, said:

I think PhilKing has been remarkably polite to you. You are the one who is showing your ignorance if you think we all "know very well" that double shows the pointed suits or that it might have 3 hearts not strong enough to double in the first place, because it's not what it means when I double. I play double specifically as 3-suited with short hearts and sound opening values, as do a lot of other people. You want to play it differently, good for you.

Sorry, i have to reply to this nonsense.

And what difference does it make if opponents play just like you (and me), 3 suited take-out ? At best it supports me, not the slam ambition, since you will be giving a heart and a club or two if doubler has 3 suit take out, with the hand Phil contructed (Jxx Axx void AKxxxx). You can't even see this eventhough i explained it previously, and yet giving lectures about ignorance ?

I am so sorry that PhilKing dissapointed you for being polite to me.

@PhilKing : You are a great player man, i think i mentioned that before too, but i disagreed with you on this hand, if you think i hurt your feelings the way i wrote my replies, you can curse at me or do something that will make Frances happy, i will still respect you and your bridge. If it was not someone who i think is a decent player, that made the slam suggestion, i probably wouldn't even reply.

[mikestar13]

Everybody from a good beginner to a world-class expert like Justin bids 4♥. Jeff Rubens in Secrets of Winning Bridge attributes this rule to Ely Culbertson: "invite slam if a perfect minimum will make it cold." The actual hand opposite is to be sure perfect, but is nowhere near as weak as a reasonable minimum. Cherry-picking is fine, if you confine the cherries to minimum hands--it's too much of a parlay to play partner for perfect cards and extra values.

[MrAce]

For those who thinks 2♥ is normal bid with xx AKxx xx AKxxx

KnR says this hand worths 17.30 points, and KnR doesn't even know yet that we have a ♥ fit!!!

[MrAce]

mikestar13, on 2012-November-30, 01:39, said:

Everybody from a good beginner to a world-class expert like Justin bids 4♥. Jeff Rubens in Secrets of Winning Bridge attributes this rule to Ely Culbertson: "invite slam if a perfect minimum will make it cold." The actual hand opposite is to be sure perfect, but is nowhere near as weak as a reasonable minimum. Cherry-picking is fine, if you confine the cherries to minimum hands--it's too much of a parlay to play partner for perfect cards and extra values.

Actually what PhilKing constructed was a perfect minimum (regarding the hcps)

xxx Axx x AKxxxx

[akwoo]

MrAce, on 2012-November-30, 02:12, said:

For those who thinks 2♥ is normal bid with xx AKxx xx AKxxx

2♥ is the normal bid with this hand .....

if you're playing a 12-14 1n opening.

[the hog]

akwoo, on 2012-November-30, 03:20, said:

2♥ is the normal bid with this hand .....

if you're playing a 12-14 1n opening.

No, i that case the hand would have been opened 1NT.
2H is perfectly normal on this hand. You can be top of the range sometimes for your simple raises.

[Zelandakh]

You would open xx/AKxx/xx/AKxxx with a 12-14 NT? Whether this hand would raise to 2 or 3 seems to me a matter of style as much as anything, and might depend on other parts of the system in use. As an example, those using the MLTC will evaluate this hand as 5 losers, far too strong for a simple 2♥ raise. Sometimes there is more than one correct answer to a problem.

Edit: just noticed the forum - perhaps I should not mention MLTC here.

[PhilKing]

Mr Ace was only kidding with me a bit for cherry-picking.

But I can't think of anything polite to say about the raise to 2♥. If their partner also uses WMWPC (wooden Milton Work point-count), they could stop in 2♥ with play for six clubs:

♠Axx ♥Jxxxx ♦x ♣Qxxx

and game is cold opposite:

♠Qxx ♥xxxxx ♦Q ♣xxxx

The opponents failure to bid marks them both with balanced eleven-counts. And that's not even cherry-picking - partner has two wasted queens.

[gnasher]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-30, 04:27, said:

You would open xx/AKxx/xx/AKxxx with a 12-14 NT?

No, he means that playing a 12-14 notrump, 1♣-1♥;2♥ is often a strong notrump with 4-card support, so xx AKxx xx AKxxx would be in range for this sequence. This makes perfect sense if you live in a country where Kaplan-Sheinwold's influence is strong, but rather less if you come from Acol-land.

[Zelandakh]

Sorry, I do not get it. The conversaton went:

"2♥ is the normal bid with this hand... if you are playing a 12-14 NT"
"No, in that case the hand would have opened 1NT"

You are correct that this makes no sense to me, coming as I do from Acol-land. How can "in that case", referring to "if you are playing a 12-14 NT" mean a strong NT? That is quite aside from the logic of what is actually being discussed. Is the range of a 2♥ raise really from 10 points and some shape all the way to 17 points (semi-)balanced? Could we not use a 3♦ rebid to cover some of those to allow Responder to stop in 2♥ once in a while? I guess I need to read up on K-S one day.

[phil_20686]

I don't understand any of the conversation on this thread:

mikeh: did you seriously "seriously consider" 3H? Surely no one does that stuff in real life.....

jdonn: Are you seriously bidding 3S? should that not be like "I would usually like to be in slam if you have no wasted spade hands". How is partner meant to guess that xxx Kxxx KQx AQx is not even good enough to risk 5H, and that is max for a 2H bid. If they bid 4S partner will surely drive you to the five level with a bunch of hands now. Sure, it would nice to be able to show a raise that is only interested in game, and wants to set up a FP over 4S, but I do not have a convenient bid for that in my arsenal. If I thought about it, I would probably used 3N for that.

Other Slam triers: LOL? Ok, i realise that slam can be cold if partner has xxx AKxx x KQJxx, and that this is not a totally unlikely scenario, but don't we bid 3H with that now? If partner has only three hearts, slam can be bad even if he has prime cards, like xxxx AKx x AQxxx, Surely he will drive a slam with this monster, and it looks incresibly likely that you will have two club losers now. All I see from a slam try is a lot of pain at the five level, when partner cannot believe quite how much we don't have our bid...... Perhaps, if you have the system where you can find out partner has singleton diamond, and then make a mild slam try, but all of these hands give partner only four cards in the point suits, which added to our three, gives them 19 cards, and rho didnt make a one level overcall, so they all need lho to have a very poor looking 65 hand, in which case, how I am I making any finesses?