[gnasher]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-November-30, 05:58, said:

Sorry, I do not get it. The conversaton went:

"2♥ is the normal bid with this hand... if you are playing a 12-14 NT"
"No, in that case the hand would have opened 1NT"

Sorry, I thought you were replying to akwoo's post; I hadn't noticed the Hog's contribution.

Quote

That is quite aside from the logic of what is actually being discussed. Is the range of a 2♥ raise really from 10 points and some shape all the way to 17 points (semi-)balanced? Could we not use a 3♦ rebid to cover some of those to allow Responder to stop in 2♥ once in a while? I guess I need to read up on K-S one day.

As I understand it, K-S features sound minor-suit openings and 1m-1M;2M is usually a four-card suit. Just think of it as "foreign".

[PhilKing]

 phil_20686, on 2012-November-30, 06:21, said:

I don't understand any of the conversation on this thread:

Other Slam triers: LOL?

I have reread the thread. Not a single poster has recommended a slam try.

[mikeh]

 phil_20686, on 2012-November-30, 06:21, said:

I don't understand any of the conversation on this thread:

mikeh: did you seriously "seriously consider" 3H? Surely no one does that stuff in real life.....

When you use quotation marks, that suggests that you are quoting something someone wrote.

When you 'quote' someone and then ridicule what you have quoted, you owe it to that person to have quoted them accurately.

I suggest you, and anyone foolish enough to accept your post as accurate, to re-read my post.

I make enough posts that contain hastily or poorly thought-out comments that I don't need someone like you attributing statements to me that I did not make.

The OP suggested that something had happened or been suggested that seemed 'crazy'. I went looking for what that might be, and I came up with a 'crazy' idea that I described, while immediately rejecting it for reasons that I described and that seemed salient. I then made the 'obvious' 4♥ bid.

[ArtK78]

 mikestar13, on 2012-November-30, 01:39, said:

Everybody from a good beginner to a world-class expert like Justin bids 4♥. Jeff Rubens in Secrets of Winning Bridge attributes this rule to Ely Culbertson: "invite slam if a perfect minimum will make it cold." The actual hand opposite is to be sure perfect, but is nowhere near as weak as a reasonable minimum. Cherry-picking is fine, if you confine the cherries to minimum hands--it's too much of a parlay to play partner for perfect cards and extra values.

It was my recollection that this quote applied to game bids, not slam bids. In other words, "invite game if a perfect minimum will make it cold." The same may apply to slams, but the odds are different, since you may wind up getting too high and going down in game.

[PhilKing]

 mikeh, on 2012-November-30, 09:16, said:

The OP suggested that something had happened or been suggested that seemed 'crazy'. I went looking for what that might be, and I came up with a 'crazy' idea that I described, while immediately rejecting it for reasons that I described and that seemed salient. I then made the 'obvious' 4♥ bid.

Exactly! I was doing the same thing from the other extreme. However, I never even came up with a crazy suggestion.

[the hog]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-November-30, 04:27, said:

You would open xx/AKxx/xx/AKxxx with a 12-14 NT?

Absolutely! I guess playing Acol you would rebid 1NT over 1S. This is a mild overbid. I made a mild underbid with my opening.

[PhilKing]

 the hog, on 2012-November-30, 19:53, said:

Absolutely! I guess playing Acol you would rebid 1NT over 1S. This is a mild overbid. I made a mild underbid with my opening.

I think we have a winner - get the straightjacket and rev up the generator. I think we have a new resident for room 5!

[the hog]

Well you better get a straight jacket for everybody who suggested a 2H rebid as well on the suggested 2425 shape. There are some decent players amongst that lot.

[han]

I reread the whole thread and I could not find any decent players suggesting a 2H rebid on that hand, except in the context of a system in which 2H shows a strong notrump opening. Who are these "some decent players" you are talking about?

[Trinidad]

I will make no claims about my playing strength, but with ♠xx♥AKxx♦xx♣AKxxx I would rebid 3♥.

Rik

[PhilKing]

 the hog, on 2012-November-30, 23:41, said:

Well you better get a straight jacket for everybody who suggested a 2H rebid as well on the suggested 2425 shape. There are some decent players amongst that lot.

The jacket was for opening a weak no trump. The 2♥ raise is more easily cured with a bit of shock treatment.

[the hog]

 PhilKing, on 2012-December-01, 18:18, said:

The jacket was for opening a weak no trump. The 2♥ raise is more easily cured with a bit of shock treatment.

So after a 1C opening and a 1S response you would reverse to 2H on this hand? That is gross! If this is your choice, don't even bother responding as that choice is absurd. Or perhaps you would rebid the Cs - acceptable, but not ideal by a long way; or maybe you would rebid 1NT showing 12-14? Which is it?

By the way, Phil, seeing that you like Cherry picking hands, how about
QJxx
xxxx
QJ
Jxx
2S, 1H, 2Ds and a likely C to lose. Even 2H does not make. "Sorry pd, I should not have bid 1H."
Give opener the K of S instead and 3 doesn't make. "Sorry pd, I should not have bid 1H."

[PhilKing]

Duplicate.

[PhilKing]

 the hog, on 2012-December-01, 19:00, said:

So after a 1C opening and a 1S response you would reverse to 2H on this hand? That is gross! If this is your choice, don't even bother responding as that choice is absurd. Or perhaps you would rebid the Cs - acceptable, but not ideal by a long way; or maybe you would rebid 1NT showing 12-14? Which is it?

By the way, Phil, seeing that you like Cherry picking hands, how about
QJxx
xxxx
QJ
Jxx
2S, 1H, 2Ds and a likely C to lose. Even 2H does not make. "Sorry pd, I should not have bid 1H."
Give opener the K of S instead and 3 doesn't make. "Sorry pd, I should not have bid 1H."

Now, now - nobody would reverse holding a weak no trump. That would be crazy!

When one opens 1♣, it does not always go pass-1♠-pass. If it did, I would rebid 2♣, but a (strong) 1NT rebid would be fine on strength. Having eschewed a weak no trump, I can hardly rebid 1NT 12-14, can I? Anyway, if you can any remotely competent player here who agrees with opening a weak no trump I will cancel your treatment.

On the hand you give, you have made a fine stop indeed. When partner has an effective one count it pays to underbid. And you probably escape for two down in your beloved 1NT ....

[akwoo]

I have to say that the hog is at least partially right here.

Back when I last played a 12-14 1nt in a regular partnership, we agreed to systemically open 2425 hands in range with 1nt. (In fact, our 12-14 1nt specifically allowed any 5422 hand with 5 in a minor; in practice this was unusual with a 4 card spade suit and usual otherwise.)

(To answer the question about K-S inspired raises. The raise to 2♥ showed anywhere from an unbalanced 11 to a bad balanced 16. Keep in mind that 1♥ is usually bid over 1♣ with nothing but ♥Kxxx and a doubleton.)

That said, I probably wouldn't have opened 1nt with AK in both my long suits.

[the hog]

Codo: "I am a crazy man too"
I guess the comments above are a mild insult to Roland as well.

I am curious:
x
AKxx
xxx
AKxxx

I would certainly bid 3H on this. (Or mini splinter 2S if that was available). Would the naysayers bid 4H on this, or do you think this hand has the same value as
xx AKxx xx AKxxx ? It doesn't for me.

[PhilKing]

 the hog, on 2012-December-02, 03:36, said:

I am curious:
x
AKxx
xxx
AKxxx

I would certainly bid 3H on this. (Or mini splinter 2S if that was available). Would the naysayers bid 4H on this, or do you think this hand has the same value as
xx AKxx xx AKxxx ? It doesn't for me.

My guess is that you are not curious, but you may be unique in adding gazillions for holding a shortage, but nowt for the other features. The naysayers would not think of such a method, so I doubt they would bid 4♥.

You could consider adjusting for holding two good suits, but the odds say no. As for the difference between x xxx and xx xx, it may not be as much as you think and could even be a trick weaker (such as when partner holds KQx xxx in your relevant suits - a frequent scenario whe no one has dredged up a spade overcall). On average, it is a bit stronger, I would guess, but not hugely so unless we are slamming. But surely the actual hand is about a trick and a half stronger than a rock minimum though, so 2♥ is just crazy ...

[lycier]

 Phil, on 2012-November-27, 20:41, said:

♠A ♥JT9xxx ♦Ax ♣Txxx

IMPs. I don't know what the vulnerability is.

1♣ - (p) - 1♥ - (p)
2♥ - (x) - ?

I ignore opp's double in this case, I will bid 2♠ so as to let partner to describe the features of his hand in further,and tell me what his help suits are. my goal is to check ♣ suit controls and the quality of ♥ trump so as to determine 4♥ or slam try in safe.

[the hog]

 PhilKing, on 2012-December-02, 18:40, said:

My guess is that you are not curious, but you may be unique in adding gazillions for holding a shortage, but nowt for the other features. The naysayers would not think of such a method, so I doubt they would bid 4♥.

You could consider adjusting for holding two good suits, but the odds say no. As for the difference between x xxx and xx xx, it may not be as much as you think and could even be a trick weaker (such as when partner holds KQx xxx in your relevant suits - a frequent scenario whe no one has dredged up a spade overcall). On average, it is a bit stronger, I would guess, but not hugely so unless we are slamming. But surely the actual hand is about a trick and a half stronger than a rock minimum though, so 2♥ is just crazy ...

You are correct - it was a rhetorical question. However treating a 5431 and a 5422 as the same strength IS crazy in my opinion. There is something fundementally wrong with your hand evaluation if you believe that the same bid is capable of describing both hands.

[Nabooba]

I totally agree with Hog's evaluation here. This is a 2 heart bid in my book. The hand with a singleton would be worth 3 hearts.