[Wentys]

At https://www.bridgebu...en_discards.php we're told "Odd-even discards are only used at a defender's FIRST discarding opportunity. This is actually an ACBL rule if you play in the United States."

Is Bridgebum correct: are there any ACBL rules that govern conventions about card-play, leads, signalling, etc?

If there are indeed rules, what is their rationale for trying to legislate this?

Thanks
Peter

[smerriman]

Yes, it's on their Convention Chart page, specifically point 3:

Quote

Encrypted Signals are never allowed when leading, following suit or discarding. Otherwise:
1. Opening lead: Any method may be used on opening lead.
2. First discard: Any method may be used on the first discard.
3. *** Other Signals: Only high-to-low or low-to-high ordering strategies are allowed.
Distinct meanings for middle cards (vs. highest and lowest) are allowed. Defining
meanings for specific spots (2,4,6…), as opposed to relative high/low agreements, are
not allowed.

Their reason for doing so was that not having the appropriate spot to signal with will cause too many breaks in tempo.

[jillybean]

I wonder how many ACBL players are aware of this.
What do other Regulatory Authorities say about signals?

[johnu]

 Wentys, on 2024-October-08, 23:24, said:

If there are indeed rules, what is their rationale for trying to legislate this?

In the most blunt terms, the prohibition of certain carding agreements like odd-even is to prevent cheating by players who don't have the correct spot cards to correctly signal.

[jdiana]

This might be obvious, but "first discard" means the first discard per person, not per pair. I originally thought that, e.g., with Lavinthal, it literally meant only the first discard by the defenders.

[mycroft]

How many ACBL players are aware of this?

I would suggest a very large fraction of the tournament players. As well as anybody who decided to play "odd-even signals", and take it to a tournament, because they do in fact get the Director called on them and the rules explained. Given the number of people who ask about signals, and the number of times they have to explain it, the chance of one of those who care enough to ask knowing the regulation (it has been this way since well into the last century) is Quite High.

Now, some of them listen to the Director and proceed to ignore it, and go back to playing (and explaining when asked) it. This tends to work, because the chance of *two* people doing it in a session is not Quite as High.

Some of those who play this don't get the Director called on them because, frankly, they're too inexperienced to be able to explain what they're actually doing clearly enough to get flagged as "odd/even signals". Some don't get called on it because they respond "odd/even" and the declarers aren't sharp enough to ask the follow-up "So, that's your discard. What's your signal when you're following suit?", which will lead to the confusion that leads to a Director call.

But the answer to your question is "pretty much every pair who at one point played this, at least if they go to tournaments occasionally." Even the top-flight players who don't know if X is legal/Alertable in competition know "multi-meaning carding is only allowed on the first discard." As I said, to the point of assuming when they hear "odd-even" in answer to "leads and carding", read it to mean "standard carding, O/E first discard", even when it's not. But not all of them...

[mycroft]

And yes, one reason for regulating (bidding or carding) agreements is that "it is too hard to play it in tempo, without leaking 'I'm stuck here' sometimes." Because it's too easy to start reading that very very well, so we remove the temptation (and potential bad-feeling rulings).

Having said all of that, there was one pair in Ontario who played O/E signals, explained it quite well, continued to do so after multiple director calls (more than one of them from me), who were "allowed" to continue with it simply because the ones who knew it was illegal were getting more benefit from their tempo than they were. Which basically tells you everything you need to know about that situation. No, I don't know what the directors knew or had tried; I wasn't even a club director at that point.

[barmar]

I think most players are aware of this because there's a section of the convention card labeled "First Discard", and that's where the checkboxes for Odd/Even and Lavinthal are located.

And whenever I ask opponents about their carding, I usually get answers like "Standard, except first discard is odd/even". They're almost always careful to say "first discard".

Of course, as an experienced player I'm usually playing against other experienced players. So I could be getting a skewed view, and maybe the hoi polloi don't understand it as well as my opponents.

[llorton]

barmar, on 2024-October-09, 13:27, said:

I think most players are aware of this because there's a section of the convention card labeled "First Discard", and that's where the checkboxes for Odd/Even and Lavinthal are located.

And whenever I ask opponents about their carding, I usually get answers like "Standard, except first discard is odd/even". They're almost always careful to say "first discard".

Of course, as an experienced player I'm usually playing against other experienced players. So I could be getting a skewed view, and maybe the hoi polloi don't understand it as well as my opponents.

Indeed, as a ranking member of the hoi polloi, I can guarantee not to understand anything as well as any random opponent - or partner.