[jillybean]

---

Pickup partner so no option other than 3NT, what are your agreements here?

[Stephen Tu]

In this position, normally I like to play 3M = 5 cds, nat, 3D = anything, could be looking for 4cd M ft, could be natural, could have nothing better to bid.

[mikeh]

I think Stephen’s treatment reflects a very common expert approach. Certainly, I’ve played that way for at least 25 years.

[mw64ahw]

3NT as both Majors especially if you remove xx45 elsewhere?
I've also played around with a transfer based approach

[apollo1201]

I guess with a pick-up partner, 3NT will lead to less disasters. You don’t have that much extras to venture above that.

In an established pair, some kind of staymanish-3D should be fine. With a real D suit, you might have jumped to 3D, or you’ll rebid D over opener’s answer (3M, 3NT or 4C).

Of course, your partner having longer D + 4 M should not forget to jump to 3M over 2D should they treat the hand as 2-suiter rather than (semi) bal.

[jillybean]

---

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-June-29, 07:53, said:

---

While I don't play the 3♦ method, I presume 4♥ cue as I'd have bid 3♥ with real hearts.

[pescetom]

I play that 3C imposes clubs as trumps even
opposite a singleton and asks for a control bid (a semi-balanced hand would have bid in NT and a two-suit minor has it's own sequence). So now I bid 3H showing a control in hearts and denying diamonds.

[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2023-June-29, 13:37, said:

I play that 3C imposes clubs as trumps even
opposite a singleton and asks for a control bid (a semi-balanced hand would have bid in NT and a two-suit minor has it's own sequence). So now I bid 3H showing a control in hearts and denying diamonds.

So what do you do with say AKQ, AK, A, K empty 7th where you have a lot of clubs but could well want to play in spades if partner has 5 bad.

[DavidKok]

Another day, another strong 2♣ bidding problem.

I would open 1♣ with Cyberyeti's hand in Dutch Doubleton.

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-June-29, 13:51, said:

So what do you do with say AKQ, AK, A, K empty 7th where you have a lot of clubs but could well want to play in spades if partner has 5 bad.

If that happens in this lifetime then I take my chances in Kokish 2NT.

[Cyberyeti]

 DavidKok, on 2023-June-29, 14:22, said:

Another day, another strong 2♣ bidding problem.

I would open 1♣ with Cyberyeti's hand in Dutch Doubleton.

You like playing 1♣ + 5 or 6 then ?

[DavidKok]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-July-02, 06:05, said:

You like playing 1♣ + 5 or 6 then ?

Yes, I love it. It would not be a stretch to say that this is the sole purpose of my bidding system.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-June-29, 13:51, said:

So what do you do with say AKQ, AK, A, K empty 7th where you have a lot of clubs but could well want to play in spades if partner has 5 bad.

The more relevant reason to reject the notion that 2C 2D 3C ‘imposes clubs as trump’ is that it’s unplayable.

Give one a hand less unusual than AKQ AK A Kxxxxxx: say AKQx x Ax AKQxxx. Even I, a conservative 2C bidder, woukd be reluctant to open 1C, and I play a method in which we very rarely pass 1C (our CC says that we normally respond to 1C with 4 hcp, and we’ve done it on less with shape and short clubs. The problem is that one just can’t catch up after 1C. One must either then drive past what may be safe or just give up and miss a slam or grand.

An unplayable method can often be used with no adverse consequences if it in essence never comes up. So one can play such a method, thinking that it’s good, until the problem hand arises.

Give responder, to my hand suggestion, something like Jxxx Kxxx xxxx x and good luck with playing a method that prevents finding spades….even when responder has say Jxxxxx Kxxxx Ax void

At imps, I can just imagine the comparison…..the opps cruise into 7S and pescetom’s partnership is where?

[pescetom]

I hear you mikeh, but I think we are just assigning different evaluations of usefulness to two possible ways of playing 2C 2D 3C. I use it (on paper, I agree it's low frequency so hard to evaluate usefulness) to impose trumps, excluding any search for fit. In that partnership we would open your less unusual hand in a very strong 2NT, just like cyberyeti's example. That has it's own problems of course (6NT and a club lead) but it tends to work out and we certainly won't miss 7S (nor will we wrong side it or have doubt about length of fit).

[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2023-July-02, 08:32, said:

I hear you mikeh, but I think we are just assigning different evaluations of usefulness to two possible ways of playing 2C 2D 3C. I use it (on paper, I agree it's low frequency so hard to evaluate usefulness) to impose trumps, excluding any search for fit. In that partnership we would open your less unusual hand in a very strong 2NT, just like cyberyeti's example. That has it's own problems of course but it tends to work out and we certainly won't miss 7S.

Is it legal to agree to open that hand 2N (it is here) ? And do you alert it as it is not always a balanced or semi balanced hand (I think you would have to here) ?

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-July-02, 09:01, said:

Is it legal to agree to open that hand 2N (it is here) ? And do you alert it as it is not always a balanced or semi balanced hand (I think you would have to here) ?

Yes and yes.

If it was 1NT strength then your hand would be legal as 1NT by agreement but mikeh's not (because of more than 9 cards in two suits, no problem about the small singleton).

[mikeh]

 pescetom, on 2023-July-02, 08:32, said:

I hear you mikeh, but I think we are just assigning different evaluations of usefulness to two possible ways of playing 2C 2D 3C. I use it (on paper, I agree it's low frequency so hard to evaluate usefulness) to impose trumps, excluding any search for fit. In that partnership we would open your less unusual hand in a very strong 2NT, just like cyberyeti's example. That has it's own problems of course (6NT and a club lead) but it tends to work out and we certainly won't miss 7S (nor will we wrong side it or have doubt about length of fit).

With all respect, opening 2N or 2C then 2N with my example hand is flat out silly. Sure, opposite my suggested responder hand, you’ll reach spades (bidding 7 seems a bit much, but maybe you allow a limited, ostensibly balanced, hand to use keycard. I don’t…there are more useful uses for 4N for us.

But now you reach 3N opposite a mundane responding hand such as Jxx xx KQxx xxxx , down at least one into your cold 6C

The problem is your insistence on playing an unplayable method for 2C 2D 3C, forcing you to utterly destroy the usual meanings for a 2N rebid. And, btw, do you alert your notrump rebids as ‘could be a powerhouse 6421 with long clubs and a small stiff (and we haven’t yet got to 4=0=2=7 hands, lol)?

Oh, and is AKQx x Ax AKQxxx a hand on which, especially at imps, you want to force to game, rather than play 2N? Which partner should pass with say xxx xxx xxxx xxx? Now, maybe 2D creates a gf, in which case you avoid that ridiculous result, but you still miss clubs too often


Shape is as important as hcp, yet you seem willing to ignore that principle

[naskippy]

In this hand with one of my regular partners I am bidding 3D. If in playing several hands with this pick up partner I see they are sub-par I am bidding 3N and take things into my control. If you see they are a good pick up partner bid 3D. Interesting hand and thanks for sharing.

[johnu]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-June-29, 13:51, said:

So what do you do with say AKQ, AK, A, K empty 7th where you have a lot of clubs but could well want to play in spades if partner has 5 bad.

Wish you were playing a different system?