[eagles123]

so this hand came up on BBO last night p and opps are all good players

---

unfortunatley the spade Queen didn't fall doubleton.


I think maybe I over-valued my hand but I thought we have all the keycards and my Diamond holding is pretty good so why not bid grand!!

my question is, how can I/we bid this better?

Thanks,

Eagles

ps. BBO results: 7H - 1 (us)
3N + 1
6H =
everyone else 4h + 2

[ahydra]

First thoughts are: You surely have to cater to 3514s and 3613s (not to mention hands with diamond voids) before jumping straight to 7H. Thinking about the possibilities - well, you've nowhere enough power to make 6NT, so the obvious 6S is out of the question; partner would still sign off with the same hand but SQ instead of SJ if you bid 5NT; and 6C can't be right because with a singleton in your hand you don't give a damn about clubs.

So that leaves only one choice: 6D. Partner might get puzzled, sure, given he's already specified his diamond holding. But it's clearly asking for more than is shown already. Partner has to figure out why you're not asking about clubs and why you can't ask about spades and deduce somehow that he needs DK or SQ to bid 7. The former is fairly easy - you're implying the ace, so singleton DK is an extra trick - but the SQ is real deep stuff :/

On a simpler note you could go slower over 3D. Just bid 3H waiting and partner signs off in 4H with his minimum (sub-minimum, even, but he has good shape and aces so calling it sub-minimum is rather harsh). Now you can probably guess that grand isn't a good idea and just go via Blackwood to 6H. Of course if 3H demands cues then 4C-4D; 4H gets you to the same place.

ahydra

[Tramticket]

The 1H opener is not particularly to my taste - though most probably will open it. I also prefer a 4C splinter to Lebensohl, this will allow partner to be better involved in the conversation.

As it happens I think the contract can be made! Ruff clubs to isolate the menace against South and squeeze South in the black suits!

[eagles123]

my hand is way too strong for a splinter

ps contract can't be made, GIB says - 1 on any lead

[eagles123]

 ahydra, on 2014-November-05, 06:21, said:

First thoughts are: You surely have to cater to 3514s and 3613s (not to mention hands with diamond voids) before jumping straight to 7H. Thinking about the possibilities - well, you've nowhere enough power to make 6NT, so the obvious 6S is out of the question; partner would still sign off with the same hand but SQ instead of SJ if you bid 5NT; and 6C can't be right because with a singleton in your hand you don't give a damn about clubs.

So that leaves only one choice: 6D. Partner might get puzzled, sure, given he's already specified his diamond holding. But it's clearly asking for more than is shown already. Partner has to figure out why you're not asking about clubs and why you can't ask about spades and deduce somehow that he needs DK or SQ to bid 7. The former is fairly easy - you're implying the ace, so singleton DK is an extra trick - but the SQ is real deep stuff :/

On a simpler note you could go slower over 3D. Just bid 3H waiting and partner signs off in 4H with his minimum (sub-minimum, even, but he has good shape and aces so calling it sub-minimum is rather harsh). Now you can probably guess that grand isn't a good idea and just go via Blackwood to 6H. Of course if 3H demands cues then 4C-4D; 4H gets you to the same place.

ahydra

thanks great advice

[ahydra]

 Tramticket, on 2014-November-05, 06:30, said:

The 1H opener is not particularly to my taste - though most probably will open it. I also prefer a 4C splinter to Lebensohl, this will allow partner to be better involved in the conversation.

Lebensohl? Do you mean Jacoby?

ahydra

[Tramticket]

 ahydra, on 2014-November-05, 06:34, said:

Lebensohl? Do you mean Jacoby?

ahydra

[Tramticket]

Yes Jacoby

[whereagles]

 eagles123, on 2014-November-05, 06:01, said:

my question is, how can I/we bid this better?

Yes. Instead of


1♥ 2NT
3♦ 4NT
5♠ 7♥

you could try


1♥ 2NT
3♦ 4NT
5♠ 5NT (got any extras?)
6♥ (not really)

[Wackojack]

 ahydra, on 2014-November-05, 06:21, said:

First thoughts are: You surely have to cater to 3514s and 3613s (not to mention hands with diamond voids) before jumping straight to 7H. Thinking about the possibilities - well, you've nowhere enough power to make 6NT, so the obvious 6S is out of the question; partner would still sign off with the same hand but SQ instead of SJ if you bid 5NT; and 6C can't be right because with a singleton in your hand you don't give a damn about clubs.

So that leaves only one choice: 6D. Partner might get puzzled, sure, given he's already specified his diamond holding. But it's clearly asking for more than is shown already. Partner has to figure out why you're not asking about clubs and why you can't ask about spades and deduce somehow that he needs DK or SQ to bid 7. The former is fairly easy - you're implying the ace, so singleton DK is an extra trick - but the SQ is real deep stuff :/


ahydra

Very neat. Yes I have read that after 4N key card a bid of 6 in a side suit asks for 3rd round control to bid the grand. As you say since a bid of 6♠ is out of the question, then 6♦ can be a substitute bid for 6♠ since the diamond shortage is already known. Great if a partnership has got that depth of inferential understanding. Very neat.

[aguahombre]

 Wackojack, on 2014-November-05, 09:43, said:

Very neat. Yes I have read that after 4N key card a bid of 6 in a side suit asks for 3rd round control to bid the grand. As you say since a bid of 6♠ is out of the question, then 6♦ can be a substitute bid for 6♠ since the diamond shortage is already known. Great if a partnership has got that depth of inferential understanding. Very neat.

Yeh, I wonder if anyone thought of it before looking at this hand? That is how some of my agreements with T come about -- after the fact; and then they never come up again. Sometimes we try an invention on the fly; sometimes it even works. 6 of the Splinter suit is really neat, now. But, I probably wouldn't have thought of it then.

[johnu]

The asking for queens is part of Spiral Scan after Keycard Blackwood, so if you're playing that, you would be golden. You would have to be on the same page about 6♦ being a substitute asking bid for spades.

[fourdad]

 Tramticket, on 2014-November-05, 06:30, said:

The 1H opener is not particularly to my taste - though most probably will open it. I also prefer a 4C splinter to Lebensohl, this will allow partner to be better involved in the conversation.

As it happens I think the contract can be made! Ruff clubs to isolate the menace against South and squeeze South in the black suits!

I absolutely agree that the culprit is the 1H open! That 1 point IS the difference between the J and the Q!!

[Antrax]

Or the W hand and the W hand with a ♦J singleton or ♣AJ8x etc.

[Trump Echo]

West's opening is suspect, but with my regular partner playing 2/1, I'd open 1 Heart as East. Not playing 2/1, I would pass.

With my regular partner, the bidding would go like this:

1H - 2S*

3C** - 3H***

4H**** 4NT

5H - 6H

All pass


*Partner, my hand is very strong, I have slam interest

**Okay. I have the Club Ace

***The trump suit is Hearts

****Partner, be warned, I have a bare bones minimum hand.

[Wackojack]

A matter of style of course but I think it is winning bridge to open all major suit 11 point 5431 hands with the exception of stiff honour, quacky or weak in long suits. This hand has aces in the long suits and 3514 is particularly good distribution to get you away in a possible competitive race.

[chasetb]

I love how a few people said the West hand is suspect for 1♥, though I know Goren would have opened that hand. I know, let's add the Q♦ so it has 13 HCP, enough for anybody to open!
Oh wait, that hand can't make 7...

I know, let's add the K♣!! No wait, still not good enough, so I'll add the J♣!!!
Unfortunately, I then am only slightly better than a 50/50 chance, which STILL isn't good enough for bidding 7...



Eagles, your hand was very good, but you need to be able to count to 13 tricks before you bid that grand (70% minimum). You needed to find out if partner had the Q♠, the K♦, or the KQ♣, any of which is golden for +2210. I can tell you that I don't personally know of anybody who could find out that information. On top of that, most people short of experts never even THINK of bidding 7, so in borderline situations go low and make your 6 for a good result. As your situation illustrates, most of the field didn't even get to 6, because they couldn't even find out about partner's shortness and 2 KC, or just couldn't picture how to make 12 tricks.

[neilkaz]

Chase's post is spot on.

Note that the response to RKCB showed two aces and the trump queen. This certainly makes it less than likely the PD holds the specific high cards needed for a grand since he has the Q of trumps. I make my grand slam try with 5NT and find out that PD has no kings and then we stop sensibly in 6♥.

[aguahombre]

 fourdad, on 2014-November-06, 04:43, said:

I absolutely agree that the culprit is the 1H open! That 1 point IS the difference between the J and the Q!!

I assume you were joking. Would you also not open JXX AQXXX X AQXX? How about JXX AQXXX X AKXX?

[dave_beer]

 ahydra, on 2014-November-05, 06:21, said:

First thoughts are: You surely have to cater to 3514s and 3613s (not to mention hands with diamond voids) before jumping straight to 7H. Thinking about the possibilities - well, you've nowhere enough power to make 6NT, so the obvious 6S is out of the question; partner would still sign off with the same hand but SQ instead of SJ if you bid 5NT; and 6C can't be right because with a singleton in your hand you don't give a damn about clubs.

ahydra

Alternatively you can play Kickback where 4♠ is the key-card ask when ♥ are trump. After the 5♥ response (2 keys + trump Q), a new suit response (as in Kantar's books on RKB) asks for 3rd round control but 5NT substitutes for the suit of the ask. This would also allow you to bid the grand opposite hands like xx-AQxxxx-x-Axxx or xx-AQxxx-x-Axxxx.