[Fluffy]

I don't find a way to unfold this because the suit is spades, if it was a minor there are third round control bid askings at the 6 level, but here 6♠ is too high, perhaps with kickback saving 1 step you could:

1♥-2NT
3♦-4♠ (blackwood)
5♥ (2 with queen)

now it should be something like...

5♠ = specificc kings ask
6♣ = third round club control ask
6♦= third round diamond control ask
5NT = third round spade control ask.

i never played kickback so I can't be sure what is the standard treatment, but there is barely just enough room for it.

[ahydra]

 Fluffy, on 2014-November-07, 04:21, said:

1♥-2NT
3♦-4♠ (blackwood)
5♥ (2 with queen)

now it should be something like...

5♠ = specificc kings ask
6♣ = third round club control ask
6♦= third round diamond control ask
5NT = third round spade control ask.

Third round diamond control ask is somewhat useless given we already know opener has second-round control. Hence my theory that it should ask for something extra not involving diamonds, sort of like a grand-slam last train.

ahydra

[mikeh]

 whereagles, on 2014-November-05, 08:28, said:

Yes. Instead of


1♥ 2NT
3♦ 4NT
5♠ 7♥

you could try


1♥ 2NT
3♦ 4NT
5♠ 5NT (got any extras?)
6♥ (not really)

5N asking for extras? Why isn't it asking for Kings, as it would be for 99.999% of the bridge population?

There are auctions in which experts play 5N as seeking or conveying information other than King asking, but not usually in a keycard context

[mikeh]

As for the OP hand, the problem was that responder made a very common non-expert mistake. He launched into keycard even tho there was no way that the responses, given his methods, could tell him how many tricks his side could make.

Kickback helps, as has been pointed out, because it keeps the bidding one critical bid lower, allowing for 5N to be an ask in spades, but even very experienced players may not have that tool in their toolbox. The notion that bidding the known shortness is a spade substitute is sexy but my guess would be that even fewer players will have discussed this (tho some players could probably field it at the table).

Over 3♦, when keycard cannot give you the information, the answer, at least initially, is: don't keycard! Surely that concept isn't too tough?

In fact, it ought to be the default position. When thinking of keycarding, ask whether keycard gives you the information you need.

When the answer is 'no', as it clearly is here...I mean, with a stiff diamond opposite, the chances of 2 or fewer spades is low.....then don't keycard.

Here, I wouldn't bid 3♥: why bother? We will be looking for a useful spade holding, so let's start by telling partner about our spades.

1♥ 2N
3♦ 3♠
4♣ 4♦
4♥ 4♠
5♥ 6♥

Opener's hand is not bad enough to sign off over the unlimited 3♠ call. Yes, it is a minimum but it has A/A and the trump Q and a partner who wasn't turned off by the diamond shortness

However, over 4♦ opener has nothing to say so bids 4♥

Responder isn't stopping so he shows the second spade control. Even tho I play kickback, this isn't a kickback auction, since were I interested only in keycards over 4♣ I would have used kickback then. The fact that I cuebid and then moved over the signoff makes this another cuebid.

Opener hates his hand. Note that on this auction, with Qxx in spades, he's actually like his hand and would be bidding 6♥

Responder can now picture a spade issue....having shown AK, and having partner express a dislike of this hand opposite this information, the problem is clear.

[blue haze]

Since I am definitely among today's enlightened bidders, I insist that this vulnerable 3514 powerhouse 10 count is surely a mandatory opening. But you say "it's even better, you have the J of spades with xx supporting it ". Of course,how could I be so blind? I admit to not having updated my glasses (like I have my bidding ) to where I can see this "holding " as a value. However, my partner is also a very modern player and together we have found an infallible system whereby the manner in which we remove our cards from the bidding box indicates if we have a MODERN 1h - or a TRADITIONAL 1h. We have a complete array of bidding tools for all traditional openings, so we only need to temper our enthusiasm opposite MODERN BIDS. Our successes are just too numerous to list here, and we are busily checking discount fares for the next Bermuda Bowl. Only one small problem remains - SCREENS. However, we are very MODERN fellows so we will find a solution! Wish us luck please BLUE HAZE

[jogs]

 eagles123, on 2014-November-05, 06:01, said:

ps. BBO results: 7H - 1 (us)
3N + 1
6H =
everyone else 4h + 2

This is why I never bid 7 unless I can count all 13 tricks during the auction.
6H + 1 rates to be a good result.

[Lovera]

 neilkaz, on 2014-November-06, 13:44, said:

Chase's post is spot on.

Note that the response to RKCB showed two aces and the trump queen. This certainly makes it less than likely the PD holds the specific high cards needed for a grand since he has the Q of trumps. I make my grand slam try with 5NT and find out that PD has no kings and then we stop sensibly in 6♥.

Although you could find ♦ K or ♣ K..(Lovera)

[gszeszycki]

What happens if you merely bid 3h vs taking control? I realize it becomes partnership dependent now but try to avoid using a tool that will most likely not give you the information you need. You have no idea how strong/weak opener is at any time during the bidding and it is indeed unfortunate opener is near minimum. Don't beat yourself up too much but try and avoid grand slams w/o some clear idea on just how you intend to make it.

over 3h maybe p can show a second suit or bid 3n to show [extra (now going to 4n would seem right) values].

[rmnka447]

Sorry for the late reply, been having some connectivity problems.

+1 for mikeh's reply.

I'm also for starting with bidding 3 ♠ cue bid over the 3 ♦ shortness response to Jacoby. After opener's next bid, you'll still have time to RKC if you want. With ♦ shortness in opener's hand, you're hand looks like small slam is pretty certain and grand slam is a distinct possibility. So after opener's 3 ♦, it doesn't hurt to take some time to figure out how to get the information you need for grand or how to tell opener about your assets so opener can bid grand if it's there.

[Phil]

This isn't really that tough of a hand playing kickback and rkc with 3rd round asks, which are more or less standard between decent players. Where it might get interesting is when Opener has an overabundance of minor cards that compensate for the spade weakness.

[nige1]

eagles123 "So this hand came up on BBO last night p and opps are all good players. Unfortunatley the spade Queen didn't fall doubleton. I think maybe I over-valued my hand but I thought we have all the keycards and my Diamond holding is pretty good so why not bid grand!!my question is, how can I/we bid this better?"

I like Fluffy's idea of using Kickback to provide room to ask for 3rd round ♠ control. In Scotland, over 5♥ (2 keys + Q), some partnerships use step-coded asks (the cheaper the lower ranking).
- 5♠ = ASK for specific kings.
- 5N = ASK for 3rd round ♣ control.
- 6♣ = ASK for ♦ void (Ahydra explains that shortage is known).
- 6♦ = ASK for 3rd round ♠ control.

---

[MrAce]

I just saw this topic.

First of all, I started with ignoring all of the comments that started or included a complain about W opening. If you are not opening the W hand, you should not be wasting your time in bridge forums that are beyond B/N level.This is as nice as I can be for these comments.
As for the 3rd round control asking. It helps but it is not perfect.
Assume W holds

Jxx
AQxxxx
Void
Axxx

vs

xxxx
AQxxxx
Void
AJx
Showing the void on keycard asking can cost space. You may argue that with hand #1, Even If they had the space and E asked 3rd round of spades, W can bid 7 despite lacking 3rd round ♠ control only if he knows pd has ♦A. So ironically on that case not having showed the void can help since then W will know E has ♦A for making a grand try.

Showing the void can be vital if pd is lacking ♦A, but it can also be costly when opener has.

xxx
AQxxxx
Void
AKQx

Even without the void, E asking 3rd round of spades can be problematic when opener and responder holds

---

So basically, the suggestions here other than the one by MikeH, is trying to teach you, as usual, a convention that may work fine with one hand while they miss the ocean on a boat on another hand. I know it is easier to grasp a convention that magically solves your problems in specific hands compared to the logic MikeH is trying to give. But if one wants to improve, he/she should avoid the shortcuts. In this game there are not many shortcuts for success unless you are willing to walk the path F-N and F-S did.

[Lovera]

I don't want to say that kickback solution not has to be considered but that, in this way, we can elude the starting by OP interesting problem involving RKB answeres. Than i suggest to remain there. Here we have that : W has splintered(3♦) but subsequently has answered 5♠(=2 with Q) and not 5NT, than void is it not. This answer doesn't give us King indication and/or extra too. I think that is more useful bidding 5NT (here we know that in club and diamond(=singleton) there is any king).