[ahydra]

Got second place at last night's pairs, so potentially we should be celebrating rather than ATB'ing. Ah well.

Playing weak NT, 4cM throughout.

1) nobody vul

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If you spot that you need to start on clubs straight away, 7S makes. Was 4S too unilateral or should South move?

2)

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We didn't find the ♦ ruff and that was 100 against every other pair's 450. I guess our West opp deserves some credit for being the only one to bid 5H, but should one of us have taken the push to 5S?

3) This South hand is just insane - 26 HCP! How would you bid to any one of the 3 makeable slams?

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2C followed by 2S shows a 4441 (maybe 5440) hand too good to open at the 1-level, and 3S says "I've got slam interest if your shortage is not in spades" - 3NT shows the shortage is unfortunately in spades. We have the ability to show a strong hand with 5D4H or 5D4C - perhaps South should use that? Or should North look for a club slam?

ahydra

[Fluffy]

1: south should move, he can't have more than this, if you have a 5♠ agreement (no heart control slam try) it would be perfect

2: south should reject, 3.5 losers opposite a free bid in his 6 card suit, and high ODR, I might even move the round before. The key here is to understand that double of 5♥ is not penalty, it shows that north has some values and didn't bid 4♠ to defend.

3: south is worth more than 3NT, whatever bid he has for more (normally 4NT) should be bid, but it wouldn't surprise me you didn't have one avaible. North is woth 4♣. He just needs around 19 working points from partner for slam in clubs to be good but this is closer.

[Cyberyeti]

1: depends on style do you know what all the following mean:

(2♥)-
4♠
X then 4♠
X then 3♠
X then 3♥ then 4♠
3♠

If 4♠ is this type of hand, then S is massive and should move.

2: how big does 4♦ need to be ? To me the actual S hand is very minimum, so N's hand is not as bad as he thinks and he should either pass or bid 5♠.

3: S deserves to catch N with KQxxx, Jx, Jxx, Qxx or similar with 7♦ completely laydown. What is "too good for a 1 opener" ? if you haven't distinguished this monster from a 1444 20 count, you deserve all you get. If partner has the values for a positive, you know you have values for a slam although may have trouble making one.

What would 2♠ direct over 2♣ have shown ?

You need a bid for short spades but too good for 3N over 3♠. What is your scheme now ? bid the shortage ? in that case 4N NF or 5N pick a slam should show this. If your scheme is just to cue, then again if you want to KC just cue first.

I actually like 5♦ as "forcing, I have a huge 0454" (with 4♦ then 5♦ as exclusion).

Note you actually want to be in diamonds as the overtrick is much more likely, the Qxx♣ offside is not a winner in diamonds.

I have some sympathy with N, give S ♣KQ53 and loads outside, and you're potentially in a poor 6♣, Jxxx makes a huge difference.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Hand 3

1 loser hand... must open 2C .
Cyber asked:

Quote

What would 2♠ direct over 2♣ have shown ?

2S would show a 5+cd suit w/ 2 of top 3 honors.

Now Opener can bid 3D:

2C - 2S
3D - 4D
6D

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Hand 1

Wouldn't 3S-jump be enough? [ no preempt hand over a preempt ].

Forcing to game. This way partner can start cue-bidding if interested.

[lalldonn]

I don't know your system on hand 3 but I can't believe north should bid 3♠. Why not just ask for the shortage then get excited if it's anywhere but spades? I would treat north showing his own suit as saying he might want to play there opposite the singleton.

And why would south show 4441 when holding 4450 anyway?

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-27, 09:18, said:

Hand 3

1 loser hand... must open 2C .
Cyber asked:

2S would show a 5+cd suit w/ 2 of top 3 honors.

Now Opener can bid 3D:

2C - 2S
3D - 4D
6D

Lazy - kickback over 4♦ to find out he has ♠ AK, and if he has 5 spades and 3 diamonds it's long odds on you can ruff one loser and pitch your other 2 on the AK. 7 is near laydown if he has J♦, Even J♥makes it pretty good. Worst case is AKxxx, xxx, xxx, xx where the club ruff has to stand up.

[mikeh]

1. S has a huge hand...Qxx and 2 Aces opposite a power bid...if you ever hold KQJ10xxxx and out, don't bid 4♠ over 2♥.....that's not what it shows.

2. I don't understand the double. Didn't N listen to the auction? Just now many hearts does he think partner holds when the opps save at the 5-level? I'd be far more worried about missing slam than going down at the 5-level. Note that KQxxx void Axxxx Kxx makes slam good, and he has to hold a better hand than that. I'd be tempted to pass, and then pull but that would be an aggressive move. 5♠ is more middle of the road, but double just indicates a misunderstanding of the game.

3. I can't comment with confidence, because I don't know the methods: I strongly suspect that S was effectively endplayed over 3♠, since 4N might well be keycard. It would be good to have the agreement that ANY bid other than notrump or 4♠ agrees spades and cooperates for slam, thus reserving 4N as natural. Would that be enough here? maybe.

[rmnka447]

Hand 1 - Since you don't preempt over preempts (and a weak 2 is a preempt), bidding 4 ♠, North should have a GOOD hand that expects to make or have a good play for 4 ♠. South is looking at two tricks/outside controls and ♠ Q [which should solidify North's suit or give a play in it]. South has to make a move toward slam. From South's perspective, the issue is the ♥ control. If North has one, slam should have a good play.

There are a couple ways to proceed. South might bid 5 ♠ if there is agreement that this would ask about a ♥ control. If South is unsure that this would be the way North would interpret the bid, a cue of a control can be made. Any suit bid past 4 ♠ should be a cue because North has already set the suit. North should cooperate over a cue in either minor by showing the heart control.

Hand 2 - When the opponents bid 5 ♥, I think North/South are in a forcing pass situation because South has shown a good hand. North's DBL says "we will defend against 5 ♥". I don't think that's the hand held. North should see that no matter which minor South holds, he has a good hand opposite it for a ♠ contract. North's options are passing or bidding 5 ♠. If North passes, South certainly will bid 5 ♠ with a raising partner.

Hand 3 - Sorry, but South's hand is a one loser hand, so I'm making whatever you're ultrastrong bid is and continuing to bid suits. If we can find any 4-4 fit, slam ought to have a play. Playing a disciplined good old fashioned strong and artificial 2 ♣ opener, a major rebid by opener would show no more than 4 losers and a minor rebid by opener shows no more than 3 loser hand. The bidding could go:

2 ♣ - 2 ♠ (1 1/2+ QTs, 5+ ♠ headed by 2 honors)
3 ♦ - 4 ♥ (splinter)
4 NT (1430)- 5 ♣
5 NT - 6 ♦
7 ♦

[ahydra]

Some very useful replies here, thanks all. I was North for all three hands.

On the first one partner and I are still polishing our hand definitions after 2-level pre-empts. I had handed partner a proposed system but he had all of 30 seconds to read it before play started Knowing this I opted for 4S rather than the perhaps more standard 3S, and partner thought I was "shutting him out". I think when we get our agreements straight he would bid 5S asking for heart control since we do have that agreement. The problem is, can you still get to the grand after 5S?

The second one I find interesting. It appears my understanding of X in this situation is different from other peoples' - I play it as "nothing else in my hand to suggest bidding on", others (currently including my partner) play it as "we're defending, full stop" (well, not quite - partner might still pull with a crazy hand). We agreed LM only a few days back, this is the first time it came up; also we agreed it should have about 4-5 losers. So here having shown my support for spades and looking at a non-fit in diamonds plus useless QJ of clubs, I figured I'd already said what I have to say and X to emphasise this. I felt partner should bid on with his two good suits and extreme ODR - he knows I'm not stacked in trumps on this bidding, surely.

On the other hand, people in this thread seem to be suggesting to look at it the opposite way: North can see partner has a heart void, and opposite a minimum LM bid there is play for 5S, so he should bid 5S (or perhaps pass to give partner a choice). So is it a matter of agreeing with your partner whose hand you're bidding - does North bid North's hand, or does he bid his own hand on the first round and both hands simultaneously on the second? I think either is playable, provided you're on the same wavelength, but I'd be interested to hear other people's views on this.

On the third one the making contracts are 7C (on the finesse), 6D and 6NT. If I'd asked for shortage with 2NT it would work nicely - partner would bid 3S, me 4C and we would get to a club slam. But I think I felt that 8xxx wasn't a great trump suit (Alternatively, 2NT-3S; 3NT-4D will surely show a GF 0454, and we play diamonds).

One interesting point is how partner can show the huge 0454 rather than just a 21-count 1444. Bidding 4D after 3S really sounds like a cue for spades... so maybe 5D? That will work fine until we start playing Exclusion!

ahydra

[Zelandakh]

ahydra, on 2012-October-28, 08:44, said:

One interesting point is how partner can show the huge 0454 rather than just a 21-count 1444.

Try this. It assumes Responder will always relay with a GF hand.

2♣ - 2♦; 2♠ - 2NT
==
3♣ = diamond shortage
... - 3♦ = asks
... - ... - 3♥ = min
... - ... - ... - 3♠ = asks
... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 4414, lower range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣ = 4405, lower range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♦ = 4414, higher range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♥+ = 4405, higher range (+ controls)
... - ... - 3♠ = 4414, extras
... - ... - 3NT = 4405, extras
... - ... - 4♣ = 4414, more extras
... - ... - 4♦+ = 4405, more extras (+ controls)
3♦ = heart shortage
... - 3♥ = asks
... - ... - 3♠ = min
... - ... - ... - 4♣ = asks
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♦ = 4144, lower range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♥ = 40(45), lower range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♠ = 4144, higher range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4NT+ = 40(45), higher range (+ controls)
... - ... - 3NT = 4144, extras
... - ... - 4♣ = 40(45), extras
... - ... - 4♦ = 4144, more extras
... - ... - 4♥+ = 40(54), more extras (+ controls)
3♥ = spade shortage
... - 3♠ = asks
... - ... - 3NT = min
... - ... - ... - 4♣ = asks
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♦ = 1444, lower range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♥ = 04(45), lower range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♠ = 1444, higher range
... - ... - ... - ... - 4NT+ = 04(45), higher range (+ controls)
... - ... - 4♣ = 1444, extras
... - ... - 4♦ = 04(45), extras
... - ... - 4♥ = 1444, more extras
... - ... - 4♠+ = 04(54), more extras (+ controls)
3♠ = club shortage, min
... - 4♣ = asks
... - ... - 4♦ = 4441, low range
... - ... - 4♥ = 4450, low range
... - ... - 4♠ = 4441, high range
... - ... - 4NT+ = 4450, high range + (+ controls)
3NT = 4441, extras
4♣ = 4450, extras
4♦ = 4441, more extras
4♥+ = 4450, more extras (+ controls)

You can decide yourself which ranges you want to use. Some use LTC for this but I keep it simple with
min, low = 18-19
min, high = 20-21
extras = 22-23
more extras = 24+

Also, because the initial relay shows values, not relaying shows weakness which makes it easier for Opener to decide whether to accept a sign-off or not. A possible auction would be
2♣ - 2♦;
2♠ - 2NT;
3♥ - 3NT; (no need to go beyond 3NT having already shown the values with 2NT)
4♦ - 6♣

Incidentally, you said that 7♣ makes but only 6♦. Why is that? it looks like 7♦ is a much better contract.