[cwiggins]

keylime, on Feb 16 2004, 02:45 AM, said:

♠ KJx 
♥ AKJxx 
♦ Ax 
♣ Qxx 

♠ QT98x 
♥ QTx 
♦ Kxx 
♣ Ax 

<smiles knowing I play Precision for a reason>

1C*(forcing, starting from top hand) - 1H (xfer to spades or clubs)
1S (accepts spades) - 2S (10-11 HCP, 6-7 losers)
2NT (1430) - 3C (1 kc)
3D (queen?) - 4D (yes with diamond king)
4H(do we have double fit?) - 5H (yes we do!)
6S

The problem is to reach the contract with South starting, and the versions of Precision that I know of don't automatically reach the slam.

Version 1 of Precision: "standard" Precision where 2/1 shows 11+ HCP. After
1S-2H
3H
responder knows that opener is minimum (11-12/13 HCP), 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. Responder has two problems. First, he does not have a lot of slam tries open to him. Responder's rebids mean:

3S = NF
3NT = Choice of games
4C = Cue
4D = Cue
4M = signoff
4NT = RKCB, which should not be considered for this slam

Second, it is not clear responder should make a slam try in face of the 3H raise. Yes, you can make slam opposite a perfect minimum: AQxxx/Qxx/xx/Kxx, but opener's range is tightly constrained so he doesn't have a lot of room for extras.

If opener does choose to cue bid 4D, two things happen: (1) South should feel okay about launching into RKCB because he has the club control and pretty nice cards for a 11-12 HCP hand and (2) opponents will probably lead clubs.

Version 2 of Precision: Viking Precision, which will have trouble also.
1S 1N
2H 2S
2N 3C
3D 3H
3S 4D
4H 4S
4N 5C
5S Pass?

1N = GF relay
2H = 5332 minimum or 4+ in OM
2N = some 5332
3D = exactly 5-3-3-2
3S = one ace
4D = super relay
4H = ace is in clubs
4N = one king
5S = 2 queens (when CRASH asks are above 4NT, the scale is 0/3, 1/4, and 2)


The reason for the pass: unless the two queens are in the majors (which will happen roughly one time out of three), the slam will be in trouble. On the other hand, 5S is playable so long as opener holds the S-Q (which will happen roughly two times out of three).

How would your Precision system bid the hands with South starting?

[keylime]

♠ KJx
♥ AKJxx
♦ Ax
♣ Qxx

♠ QT98x
♥ QTx
♦ Kxx
♣ Ax

OK from the south's hand using KLPV13B6:

1S - 1Nt* (forcing)
2C*(forced) - 2H*(GF, natural)
3H - 3S* (showing double fit)
4D*(Last Train for hearts) - 4S*(4 kcs, 6ARKCB)
6D*(have diamond king, pick your slam) - 6H (to keep strong hand concealed)

Thing is, in retrospect, 6NT is probably a little safer.

[the hog]

Version 1 of Precision: "standard" Precision where 2/1 shows 11+ HCP. After
1S-2H
3H
responder knows that opener is minimum (11-12/13 HCP), 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. Responder has two problems. First, he does not have a lot of slam tries open to him. Responder's rebids mean:

3S = Best played as forcing, Chris, in Precision Sayc or whatever
3NT = I like Serious or frivolous here, again in any system

Second, it is not clear responder should make a slam try in face of the 3H raise. Yes, you can make slam opposite a perfect minimum: AQxxx/Qxx/xx/Kxx, but opener's range is tightly constrained so he doesn't have a lot of room for extras.

Certainly agree with this. Moscito MIGHT get there as you can ascertain the location of the 2 Queens at a lower level. It still depends on the location of the CK, so I am not that sorry we missed it.

[cwiggins]

Version 1 of Precision: "standard" Precision where 2/1 shows 11+ HCP. After
1S-2H
3H
responder knows that opener is minimum (11-12/13 HCP), 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. Responder has two problems. First, he does not have a lot of slam tries open to him. Responder's rebids mean:

3S = Best played as forcing, Chris, in Precision Sayc or whatever
3NT = I like Serious or frivolous here, again in any system

The interpretations of 3S and 3NT came from "Super Precision," p. 89. However bidding theory may have progressed in 31 years.

Even for Precision, that 3S is forcing is the better treatement seems clear. The "ACOL Index" by Crowhurst says 3S is forcing in this sequence. (Interestingly the "ACOL Index" says that that 1H-2C; 3C-3H is NF: a limit raise with 3-cards--I think this is consistent with SAYC--and that 1D-2C; 3C-3D is also forcing.) If ACOL with its natural style and possibly weak 2/1s thinks 3S is forcing, how could it be NF in any natural system?

What 3NT should mean in a Precision system is not as clear. Some rare hands might want to bid 3NT as natural, NF. Maybe something like Ax/Jxxxx/AQx/AQX

If 3NT is forcing, it should not be part of a frivolous/serious 3NT with serious/frivolous cuebids. If responder has no aspirations for slam, then there is no slam given opener's very limited hand. So any "frivolous" bid to say you don't have any interest in slam--whether 3NT or a cue--is useless.

Conclusion: if 3NT is forcing, 3NT needs to be a slam try just like 4m are slam tries. But what should it mean? Serious 3NT demanding a cue bid? A general slam try saying cue or signoff depending on the nature of your controls? Maybe a spade cue bid? I don't know.


Second, it is not clear responder should make a slam try in face of the 3H raise. Yes, you can make slam opposite a perfect minimum: AQxxx/Qxx/xx/Kxx, but opener's range is tightly constrained so he doesn't have a lot of room for extras.

Certainly agree with this. Moscito MIGHT get there as you can ascertain the location of the 2 Queens at a lower level. It still depends on the location of the CK, so I am not that sorry we missed it.

The unanswerable question without context and a personality test: if you know about the two queens, then you know a slam is 50-50 on the best lead by the opponents and laydown otherwise. Do you bid it? The results of my personality test are . . . unpredicatable (a much better word than erratic).

[cwiggins]

keylime, on Feb 18 2004, 06:14 AM, said:

♠ KJx 
♥ AKJxx 
♦ Ax 
♣ Qxx 

♠ QT98x 
♥ QTx 
♦ Kxx 
♣ Ax 

OK from the south's hand using KLPV13B6:

1S - 1Nt* (forcing)
2C*(forced) - 2H*(GF, natural)
3H - 3S* (showing double fit)
4D*(Last Train for hearts) - 4S*(4 kcs, 6ARKCB)
6D*(have diamond king, pick your slam) - 6H (to keep strong hand concealed)

Thing is, in retrospect, 6NT is probably a little safer.

Your sequence raises questions.

Is 3S choice of games or slammish? Must be slammish, otherwise South's bids are not reasonable.

Why not 4C (a cue bid?) instead of 4D?

[inquiry]

cwiggins, on Feb 18 2004, 12:41 PM, said:

Your sequence raises questions.

Is 3S choice of games or slammish? Must be slammish, otherwise South's bids are not reasonable.

Why not 4C (a cue bid?) instead of 4D?

I wonder if dwayne meant that 4♦ was last train for ♥ or rather he simply meant it as minimum hand for ♥ and 4♥ would be minimum hand and choosing ♠? That is, he didn't explain what a 4♥ bid would be, but he placed emphasis on 4♦ being specifically for ♥. IF this is true, he is in a bit of pickle when it comes to cue-bidding, he can only cue-bid one suit (♣) on this auction... so I wonder if 4♣ shows top of the auction so far, and these so called last trains show minimum (he is limited to 11-15 and his 11 is dead minimum).

It will be intersting to read his reply. I happen to like double agreement auctions so that 6 keycard roman keycard can be used... and maybe this minimum is one where it might be used effectively, looking at queens in both agreed suits, and stoppers in both side suits. After you hear the response you will know exactly how high you can risk playing. Don't know if I would be brave enough to pull out 6 card RKCB here on my massive 11 count, but at least it is an option. IF we are off one keycard, I will play slam it from myside to protect the ♦K, if off two maybe so too... if we are off three... whoops, hope one is an onside major suit king.

Ben