[JoAnneM]

The other night a friend invited me to play at BBO. I must admit I haven't played here in awhile, I play mostly at two other "pay" sites.

We opened a table at the Main Bridge Club and I was totally appalled at what happened. For the first six or seven hands I don't think we finished one hand with the same two opponents, and they would come and go with no comments. This is totally unacceptable behaviour where I am used to playing and these people would not last long there. Finally the game settled down when two "experts" arrived at the table and we were able to play some hands.

So, why are there so many people here? The ACBL tournies are more expensive, there don't seem to be any rules, it can be free, but not all of it is free. The Vugraph is fantastic. And I am not pushing any other site, I just really don't understand the draw to this one when I have had such disappointing experience with it, on several occasions.

[hrothgar]

Hi JoAnne

Couple quick comments:

1. As I am sure you are aware, BBO is a free site. Anyone can join, without paying any kind of fee. In contrast, other sites, like OKB charge a substantial membership fee. One can make the argument that this type of tiered pricing structure will cause players to self select. Casual pairs will gravitate to the free site. “Serious” player will gravitate to the fee based site to keep clear of the riff-raff.

2. Opening up a table in the Main Bridge Club and advertising for opponents is a recipe for disaster. As you already discovered, you'll end up with a truly eclectic selection of opponents. Lots of “serious” bridge takes place on BBO, however, this normally involves players who already know one another. Players will often schedule games in advance. Alternatively, they'll message one or more friends and agree to set up a table.

If worst comes to worst, you could always just post a message on the BBO forums saying that you're looking for opponents. I suspect that if you posted in the expert forum, you could find a strong pair to play against in a matter of minutes.

As to your original question: I play at BBO because I think that Fred and Uday have a genuine commitment to improving the product. They introduce lots of new features and functions. This is where all the "interesting" stuff is happening. Its fun to watch. (In contrast, I think that Matt Clegg is treating OKB as a "cash cow". He's trying to make as much money as possible off the site, while minimizing new investments.) Your milage may vary,

[cherdano]

Hi Joanne,

did you have "permission required to join for players" check-marked? Then you can pick your opponents somewhat, of course it is a guess by looking at their profile, but you will quickly learn some hints for guessing who might be a reasonable opponent. Also, maybe players take it a little more seriously if they first have to ask to sit down.

Anyway, if you play more on BBO and make more friends, you will often have friends around to play against, which is a lot more fun of course.

Arend

[JoAnneM]

Yes, that was checked. Actually I have to confess - I have been playing online bridge since 1991. Anyone remember the Imagination Network and the Village where you entered the little house to play bridge? I was even a site administrator for Shawn Quinn when she managed another site, so I know my way around online bridge sites and I have lots of friends.

Understand I am not putting down BBO, I am just trying to understand the draw. Some of my friends think it is because it doesn't have a rating system, which is a huge bone of contention on any other site which has one. I really doubt that the fees are such an issue. I know of another free site that had to ask for donations to keep going and the money just flowed in.

To top it off BBO has a great Forum, I enjoy it very much.

[inquiry]

Hi Joanne,

Welocme to the BBO forum.

While I understand the type of behavior you describe occurs, I almost never experience it. There is a number of reasons for this. Mostly I play in team games or against online friends. Since you are newish to BBO, you maynot have many friends, but you can define new ones by the people that stay at your table and play a good game. You can also seek out people playing at tables with lots of kibitzers. Usually the kibitzers and the players at those tables will be the type of people who don't run away.

Also, the BBO actively seeks to "punish" people who leave a table too often. So no one does this a lot or they will be automatically banned by the computer.

But the bottom line is playing the game. Anywhere you can find a game is a great place to play. If it happens to be some pay site, great. But on BBO, you get exposed to wider array of bridge and bridge ideas, as I am pretty sure it is more international than where you play.

[uday]

Another way of looking at JoanneM's question might be to look at why people jump in and out of tables so casually, since this seemed to be the issue with her session.


Help Me Find A Game
-------------------------

Front & center on the BBO home screen is 'Help me find a game'

This is designed for people who don't care who, where, how -- they just want to jump into a game with random opps, and push some cards.

Tables in the Main Bridge Club are targets for this, provided that they are open (permission not needed to play).

A table host who selects 'Permission required to play' when setting up the table will force the casual user who clicks 'HelpMeFindAGame' to bypass his table.

A nontrivial minority of users use this facility to find games.


Riff-raff welcome here
---------------------------

One can do just about anything here without ever forking over a credit card.

This creates an environment where the player might have less at stake than at a pay site. Does this lead to an increased degree of unruly behaviour on a percentage-of-player basis? I have no way of knowing. Some of our most egregious offenders have been paying customers.

The only way to enjoy an environment on BBO that is totally free of riff-raff is to join/create a private club where admission is restricted. There are several such clubs already.


Culture
----------

I recall the dance steps. Hi. Hi. Need one? Pause for lehman check. No thanks/Please sit.

The dance is a little different here. The culture seems to be much more "don't ask before sitting. If i wanted you to ask, I'd have set permissions-required-to-sit".


Language
------------

I suspect that the "Credit Card required" policy at full pay sites filters out a lot of non-english-speaking people. I could be wrong, no yelling if you think so.

English is not a requirement here, and the language barrier is possibly a cause for the apparent lack of hi/byes


Game format
-----------------

For random play, tourneys & teamgames are likely to be more serious. A TD in a tourney will ensure that your opps don't blink on/off too frequently.



To wrap it up:

I think adding permission-required-to-play, and advertising to lobby for serious players who want to stay a while will do the trick in the Main Bridge Club.

I suspect that membership in one or more of the free tourney clubs will increase the # of quality games

[pbleighton]

Tourneys are much better than the MBC.

Peter

[1eyedjack]

inquiry, on Jun 24 2007, 06:05 PM, said:

Also, the BBO actively seeks to "punish" people who leave a table too often. So no one does this a lot or they will be automatically banned by the computer.

I think this only applies to those who bail in mid-hand. It would not capture those who sit for one hand, complete the hand, and leave.

I have to say that my experience of the MBC is broadly similar to the OP when playing in a pick-up game. But BBO is large, and it is not hard to gravitate to a niche where the manners are better.

[helene_t]

I almost gave up on BBO in the beginning for the reasons you mention. Then someone adviced me to forget about the main room and play tourneys instead. I was insecure about tourneys because newbies were adviced to start in the mian room to aclimatize (maybe tourneys required very good computer and bridge skills, fast internet connection, knowledge of hundreds of acronyms and BBO standard bidding conventions? Scarry!)

So I mostly played as a sub. That was a very positive experience. Partner's and TDs often express gratitude towards subs, and more and more often I received invitations to play in tourneys or team matches from someone I had played with as a sub.

There are also some public clubs with better behavior than the main room. WP-refuge is cousy yet most people play very old-fashioned style with 13+ opennigs and such. The Acol club is very good if you play Acol. You might also consider joining a private club.

BBO is two things. There's the infrastructure provided by Fred and Uday, and there are the communities that thrive on that infrastructure. The good thing is that the infrastructure is very flexible so that groups of users can set up clubs, tournes, team matches, main room tables, chatrooms, bbo league-like matches and partnership bidding tables according to their own taste. The bad thing is that for a newcomer, it's a jungle.

[pokerbids]

"Understanding the draw" – Hmmmmm well I guess there would be millions of opinions on what draws the crowd here….And I think that’s actually it - the millions of opinions can only mean there are a million possibilities and ultimately its this vast openness and flexibility that the site offers that is both the key differentiating factor and reason for the “draw”. For me it is this ability to “do your thing” that is deep within the soul of the site. It’s the infinite features that one is allowed to create on here- from learning, teaching, playing for 5 mins or 5 hours, any format u feel like from money to rubber bridge, or teams or do just about anything “Bridge” that draws me here. The limit to the creativity here is ones own imagination. Chat, read, browse the forum, read articles, make a private teaching room, watch a vugraph. There is nothing one can’t do here. It’s the very ultimate expression of bridge freedom that for me is the draw here. I don’t like playing for money so I don’t have to…there are so many other things to do and that “freedom” for me is the reason for being. I even changed all the site colours to suit my own peculiar tastes! It is this imaginative but simple approach that draws a lot of folks in. There is something in it for everyone and that builds the momentum so if you don’t like one thing there are a million other things to do on site and that very empty platform that BBO has enabled me to practice my own brand of madness on is what draws me in. Don’t really know if this helps in any way answer your issue of “draw to the site”. The flexibility that this place allows to “custom twist” it to fit your needs – That’s the one thing that I haven’t come across elsewhere. Making most things non Rated seems to me the only thing intrinsic to this site that the site owners are firm on. (Besides the normal behavior tolerances). And all this for free. Someone has devoted time, energy, creativity and money for this huge project and he is giving it to me FREE. Its mad if I come to think of it – I like this madness but its mad I mean really mad. The only thing that can possibly explain it is that someone loves bridge better than me…that itself is unbelieveably but the guy seems to know computers, bridge, social behavior and has a love and devotion for this game that exceeds my imagination by far. Me I just think that the creators of the site just love this game and created the site for themselves and for some strange reason allowed us in. I just hope they never close the door!!!!!

Finally I love the title of your subject "Why should I play at BBO" - Wife screams at me a bit differently - "You live at BBO she rants and come to our "real home" to eat only and that too feed your computer half the meal - Its even become healthier than you" she carries on without any justification I may add!!!!!

[paulg]

I run a lot of team games where I advertise in the Lobby for people to play. The quality of the players who respond and 'stickiness' is excellent, far better than setting up a table in the main club. Quite often you get partnerships responding and, of course, they are almost guaranteed to play all the hands (so make them your opponents).

My guide to running team matches on BBO may help.

Good luck,

[jtfanclub]

I'll put some more ideas in suggestions for the software, however...

I think people would be much more happy if we called the Main Bridge Club the Lobby instead. People who play at the MBC include....

-those who don't have the time on to play a tourney/team game (just a hand or two)

-those waiting for a tourney to start.

-those waiting for a friend to show up.

-those learning the mechanics of how to bid and play online.

-those who, thanks to being on line when most of their country is not, find it difficult to have a real partnership due to the language barrier.

All of these people aren't really looking for the type of game you are. And since I think they should be allowed to play at BBO, that's pretty much what a game in the Main Bridge Club tends to end up being.

[keylime]

JoAnne,

You can play against Larry and I anytime; call it an open invitation.

I tend to agree with the posters; the tourneys are a little better in terms of "quality" versus the MBC. My views align closest to Ben's.

[Rain]

Hey, nobody mentioned the draw of very easy opponents mostly (brain dead bridge is good, me like).

And then of course, you can play harder games, at will.

[JoAnneM]

What great responses - all very positive. I really expected some "if you don't like it, take a hike" answers. And I appreciate those responses because I was serious about my concerns.

I will try some of the suggestions, and thank you all very much.

[mike777]

JoAnneM, on Jun 24 2007, 11:17 AM, said:

The other night a friend invited me to play at BBO.  I must admit I haven't played here in awhile, I play mostly at two other "pay" sites.

We opened a table at the Main Bridge Club and I was totally appalled at what happened.  For the first six or seven hands I don't think we finished one hand with the same two opponents, and they would come and go with no comments.  This is totally unacceptable behaviour where I am used to playing and these people would not last long there.  Finally the game settled down when two "experts" arrived at the table and we were able to play some hands.

So, why are there so many people here?  The ACBL tournies are more expensive, there don't seem to be any rules, it can be free, but not all of it is free.   The Vugraph is fantastic.   And I am not pushing any other site, I just really don't understand the draw to this one when I have had such disappointing experience with it, on several occasions.

1) You make powerful points for not playing in the main bridge room.
2) ACBL tourneys cost 1$. All of them. I do not remember seeing any free ACBL tourneys.
3) Where are ACBL tourneys cheaper?
4) IMHO getting a partner remains the most difficult issue for online bridge as well as offline bridge.
4) Over the decades I think I played so little in the paying sites I found it a huge waste of money, I could never find a partner. I think over one two year stretch I played for 15 minutes and over another two year stretch maybe 30 minutes.
5) I do enjoy playing teamgames even as a sub very often. I am guilty of subbing sometimes and finding such a silly situation that I just leave, despite the bbo warnings.

[bid_em_up]

JoAnne,

Just in case you didn't know, Inquiry (Ben) is one of the BBO yellows and forum moderators, as is Rain. Uday is also a BBO yellow and one of the programmers with BBO. Along with Fred (Gitelman) the founder and writer of the BBO software who also frequently posts here. This is just one of the things that I feel have helped BBO to become as popular as it is.

They are here, and they respond to the users. You can contact a BBO yellow on the site at almost any time of the day or nite, if need be. Fred frequently incorporates new ideas from forum users into new releases of the BBO software. In other words, the owners and administrators of the site actually listen to the user's needs and requests. We may not always get what we ask for, but we know we have been heard.

You simply cannot beat the vugraphs here. In quality or quantity. And this will only grow in time as more and more SO's take advantage of it. BBO provides the vugraph software for free to anyone who wishes to use it for vugraph purposes. Walldk (Roland) does an excellent job of providing commentators for all of the scheduled vugraph matches, and he does it on a volunteer basis. Does your paid site do this at all?

Yes, the site is free. That's another plus (in some respects) and it can also be a minus. It is a plus as it allows users who cannot afford a monthly/annual fee to play bridge to have a quality place to play. It is a minus because there is no discouraging factor to signing up and then being rude/abusive/etc. other than a ban on using BBO. In most cases, people who have had to pay a substantial fee to play on a site will refrain from this sort of behavior if they know they will have their membership terminated and lose their money as a result of it. A lot of this behavior also has migrated from Yahoo where it was a free-for-all (and MSN) to here.

A big plus for me is the number of World Class players who use this site. Almost every top player in the world frequently plays here, free for the watching. A lot of people enjoy this, I know I do. A lot of the WC players are even willing to join you in either MBC games or in team matches, giving non-WC players the opportunity to play with or against them

It is possible to find good bridge games. Following the advice already given by others will produce many good players for you to add to your friends list.

Find the forum posters on BBO and see who they are watching or who is watching them. Any of these people are more likely to be the type to sit and play for extended periods of time.

In time, you may notice that the people who tend to frequently vacate hands are from a handful of specific countries (or at least I have). I won't name the countries, but they quickly become obvious. I have simply stopped accepting random players from these countries at my table. Am I missing some good players by doing this? Probably, but it was a solution I can live with.

[pokerbids]

“In time, you may notice that the people who tend to frequently vacate hands are from a handful of specific countries (or at least I have). I won't name the countries, but they quickly become obvious. I have simply stopped accepting random players from these countries at my table. Am I missing some good players by doing this? Probably, but it was a solution I can live with “– Bid em up

There is an implication in that post that is unacceptable to me. In a way I think it is unacceptable to many of the people he has named above (if not all of them) for if they believed in it they have the power and authority to disallow members from specific areas. One of the creeds I believe in is “do not discriminate against anyone on the basis of nationality, gender, religious belief and the like” Of course anyone is allowed their freedom here as is the poster and I have no quarrel with him personally disallowing anyone on to his table based on their country of origin (It does sound awful though). I earnestly hope that one of the reasons for the “draw” in here is its very openness and freedom and accessibility to all subject to following generally acceptable codes of conduct. No this is not a forum for discussing social issues but I wanted to make a point of that particular para that even in the context of bridge does reflect an unacceptable (to me) bias. There are many things that irritate one on the bridge table (and sudden departure of playing folks is one of em) but to blame this on people from a handful of countries – I don’t quite see the merit in that. Ultimately this is a fun game, serious but fun isn’t it. And “virtually” meeting folks so easily from across different nations and parts of the globe is part of the fun for me. Saying that I know I probably won’t change anyone’s view on this subject and tomorrow if anyone wants to disallow say “men” from their playing table they can but believe me they will miss half the fun.

[han]

I like the bridge on BBO very much, but I almost never play with or against random players. I play only against friends or against friends of friends (who then may become friends). I find that playing against friends in the main bridge club (or in team games) is much more enjoyable than playing tournaments.

[sceptic]

Quote

but to blame this on people from a handful of countries

I challenge you to run a tournement in the morning about 8 AM GMT and see if you do not change your mind