[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2026-November-03, 04:31, said:

Not exactly. GF hands with fit will almost always 2/1, but bidding a natural 5 card red suit whenever possible, otherwise 2♣.
The 2NT raise is nominally invitational in absence of interference, although it can be used by slightly stronger hands: opener can check back to discover length of fit and shortage if she so wishes.
Many Italians play a similar scheme but with 2NT always 4 card and some alternative for a 3 card invite. I tried it and was underwhelmed.

I don't find it a great loss that Opener with 5 cards may not know about 4 card fit. Responder knows and more often than not will be making the final decision because in possession of more information. Like all elements of uncertainty, it's also a problem for the opponents.

It's a good thing to keep the opponents in the dark—although at my level, it is perhaps a moot point.
I have yet to be convinced that it is good to keep partner in the dark.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2026-November-03, 07:29, said:

It's a good thing to keep the opponents in the dark—although at my level, it is perhaps a moot point.
I have yet to be convinced that it is good to keep partner in the dark.

I think it is bad, as I commented initially. But also usually inconsequential (say it might damage 1% of the slam investigations when Responder has a fit for the 1M opening, the other 99% either Responder will be deciding or it made no real difference to Opener or he guessed right) and certainly not worth dedicating an artificial bid to resolve.

If I were to introduce another major raise in the system, it would be to obtain more detail about raises below invitational, which is an issue in tens of boards per week, not one board a month.

[jillybean]

I would be interested in trying it, and one partner would be willing. However, I am still trying to convince my other partners that 2♣/1M is a good approach. Getting them to give up Jacoby 2NT would be a miracle.

What more detail do you need after 1M 1NT 2m 2M?

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2026-November-03, 08:11, said:

Getting them to give up Jacoby 2NT would be a miracle.

Much like getting Italians to give up rebidding 1M after 1m 1Y when they are balanced
But both will happen over time.

 jillybean, on 2026-November-03, 08:11, said:

What more detail do you need after 1M 1NT 2m 2M?

The detail of being able to pass a 1NT response with a minimum 5332.

[mike777]

 pescetom, on 2026-November-03, 07:18, said:

Correct, although we respond 2/1 (clubs only if no red 5 card). There is no obvious need to show support immediately if we have game force values and the system does not offer this option (splinters and fast arrival aside). I suspect that will come to be considered standard if it is not already.

Not immediately supporting with support would certainly be radical change. Hiding your support would certainly be a different approach.

I had no idea hiding your support is considered standard....

[mikeh]

mike777, on 2026-November-03, 09:57, said:

Not immediately supporting with support would certainly be radical change. Hiding your support would certainly be a different approach.

I had no idea hiding your support is considered standard....

Not only is it not standard, but it’s imo a very, very bad idea. Ask yourself this question: do you think your hand evaluation improves or gets worse when partner announces a good fit for your opening suit?

I do t mean that one should never show a good side suit, while creating a force, with support. For example, I’d respond 2D to 1S with, say, Kxxx x AKJxxx Ax because later on I want partner to value the diamond Queen.

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-November-02, 16:54, said:

MP

---

and so on to 6 spades

Just curious: why would you raise a non-suit (nebulous 2C) with 3C instead of bidding 2D?

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction would start:

1♠-2♣ (nat not GF at least 4 unless 3433)
2N (GF big not necessarily bal)-3♣(5+♣)
3♦ really big 5+♠/4+♦-3♠(exactly 3♠)
4♣(5143/5053)-4♦(kickback)
4♥(0/3)-4♠(Q♣?)
4N(yes +♠K)-5N(anything else ?) partner will show Q♠/Q♦)
6♣(no)-

Now partner has shown Kxxxx, A, Axxx, AQx without the pointy Qs but that is not enough to take the 2N route rather than rebidding 2♦ take your pick between 6N/7♣

[jillybean]

 WasWinM, on 2026-November-04, 11:45, said:

Just curious: why would you raise a non-suit (nebulous 2C) with 3C instead of bidding 2D?

I don't know what partner has, it may be clubs. He does not have 5 of either red suit, he does not have 4 spades.
If we have a 4 4 diamond fit we probably belong in NT?

[pescetom]

mikeh, on 2026-November-03, 10:43, said:

Not only is it not standard, but it’s imo a very, very bad idea. Ask yourself this question: do you think your hand evaluation improves or gets worse when partner announces a good fit for your opening suit?

I think that as Responder my hand evaluation (and our useful space) improves when Opener knows he is in a game force and is free to make a second natural descriptive bid in economy, quite likely below repetition of his major too.
Vice versa, I struggle to see how Opener gained a real advantage in evaluation of his hand by knowing at first round (after my nuking level 2) that I have a good fit, rather than at second round after I have probably described another 5 cards of my hand and evaluated his second bid too.

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-November-04, 12:18, said:

I don't know what partner has, it may be clubs. He does not have 5 of either red suit, he does not have 4 spades.
If we have a 4 4 diamond fit we probably belong in NT?

For me, I don't like making these kind of assumptions (i.e., it belongs in NT) without more info. Then, I'm not a fan of the whole nebulous club thing, either.

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-November-04, 12:18, said:

I don't know what partner has, it may be clubs. He does not have 5 of either red suit, he does not have 4 spades.
If we have a 4 4 diamond fit we probably belong in NT?

I don't like the idea of assuming NT is right, even at mp.

[jillybean]

WasWinM, on 2026-November-04, 16:38, said:

For me, I don't like making these kind of assumptions (i.e., it belongs in NT) without more info. Then, I'm not a fan of the whole nebulous club thing, either.

---

I am trying not to mastermind or make assumptions. Partner does not have 3+ spades, 5+ diamonds/hearts/clubs

2344 2443 but why would he not bid nt after 3♣?

Ax,QJx,Kxxx,Kxxx

So where do we want to play? I'm trying to understand

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-November-04, 12:18, said:

I don't know what partner has, it may be clubs. He does not have 5 of either red suit, he does not have 4 spades.
If we have a 4 4 diamond fit we probably belong in NT?

You never bid and made a slam on a 4=4 fit? Sad. Even sadder that you decide to distort your hand in order to avoid even finding the fit.

Wtf is anyone doing raising 2C on that hand?

How about an auction I’d expect to have with 90% of random NA experts, at least to start:

1S 2C 2D 2S? If one plays that 2S is just a preference, then bid 3S. But…after 1S 2C 2D, there is no 4=4 heart fit so responder’s 2 H is either 5=6 in hearts and clubs (which is rare) or denies 3 spades, 4 diamonds, or a heart stopper.

1S 2C 2D 2S 3C

Guess what? Opener has shown 5=1=4=3. Amazing…he’s describing his hand to his partner. Wow! That’s definitely not a normal BBF approach since it means he’s treating his partner as an actual partner, not just an unlucky sod incapable of bidding intelligently.

1S 2C 2D 2S 3C 3D…no rush to bid 3N when partner won’t often hold the heart Ace.

Now 3H by opener. 4C by responder, 4D by opener, 4 H by responder.

Guess what! Opener has shown slam interest, 5=1=4=3 shape with the stiff heart Ace and both minor aces. Responder has not really defined his shape…he could be 3=3=3=4, but 3=3=2=5/3=2=3=5 are both possible. He could even have 6 clubs. He has shown more than a horrible minimum, and both red kings and the club K.

So now is the time for keycard by opener and 6S is duly reached. I’d consider 6N because my club holding offers the chance for 12 tricks even if I have two spade losers. Axx Kxx Kx Kxxxx. If spades prove foul I may have a diamond finesse, or partner might have a red queen or 6 clubs or a diamond/spade squeeze. So I think 6N is best. Note that I can only do this because my auction has allowed responder to show me tge heart King.

Anyway, opener knows that slam must have play.

[mw64ahw]

pescetom, on 2026-November-02, 06:44, said:

MP

---

You would get 3♠ over 3♣ too.

My Nebulous 2♣ allows responder's 2nd bid to be 4♣ (5+ headed by at least a King) as a choice of slams.
This puts the onus on opener to make a decision, which may be Clubs given the AQJ. Now 4♦ is Kickback for ♣ with the auction maybe converting to 6N.
If Spades I'd play Kickbo.
I've not yet tested double keycard Kickback, but this could be an alternative and may facilitate 6N