[jillybean]

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[mike777]

4S over three clubs
Yes pard may have perfect cards for 6

Next deal

[jillybean]

I’d bid 4S when I’ve opened on AKxxx,KJxx,xx,xx

[pescetom]

If 3♥ is a control-bid then 4♣, what else?

[akwoo]

jillybean, on 2026-October-09, 16:12, said:

I’d bid 4S when I’ve opened on AKxxx,KJxx,xx,xx

Really? Why would you expect 4S to have any hope when partner has 7-9 with 4 card support? Qxxx Qx Axxx xxx is a very good fitting hand for partner to have, and 4S is still hopeless.

I'd have bid 4S over 3C.

[jillybean]

akwoo, on 2026-October-09, 18:15, said:

Really? Why would you expect 4S to have any hope when partner has 7-9 with 4 card support? Qxxx Qx Axxx xxx is a very good fitting hand for partner to have, and 4S is still hopeless.

I'd have bid 4S over 3C.

Yeah, I was being flippant but this hand is too good for a jump to 4♠

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[mw64ahw]

I struggle with these Bergen point counts as descriptions because they fail to describe playing strength. This may explain why so many are sceptical of their use.
Here it looks like each player has a shortage and I'm not sure what North's red suit bids are meant to mean.
All I can say is that with 4.5 mod. losers opposite what should be a max. 8.5 (and the two red suit bids) I'd call 6♠

[akwoo]

I really hate that 3H was a cue rather than pattern. But, in this case, partner has a diamond shortness, and I'm not going to play them for 2 shortnesses, so I can make another control bid with 4H.

I'm really hoping partner has the perfecto Kxxx AQx x xxxxx because that's what it takes for 6 to be a good proposition. (And stop with the loser count stuff - start imagining what you need from partner.) Hopefully the heart control bid will put them on the right track, but I don't see how they tell the difference between your hand and the same hand with rounded suits switched. OTOH, I don't see any other way of trying to get partner to tell you if they have 3rd round control of hearts or not.

[mike777]

 mw64ahw, on 2026-October-09, 19:56, said:

I struggle with these Bergen point counts as descriptions because they fail to describe playing strength. This may explain why so many are sceptical of their use.
Here it looks like each player has a shortage and I'm not sure what North's red suit bids are meant to mean.
All I can say is that with 4.5 mod. losers opposite what should be a max. 8.5 (and the two red suit bids) I'd call 6♠

In Bergen 3C shows probably 9 to 9,5 loser hand.
Again 8,5 loser and QH and KS are playing partner for perfect cards

[mike777]

 akwoo, on 2026-October-09, 20:13, said:

I really hate that 3H was a cue rather than pattern. But, in this case, partner has a diamond shortness, and I'm not going to play them for 2 shortnesses, so I can make another control bid with 4H.

I'm really hoping partner has the perfecto Kxxx AQx x xxxxx because that's what it takes for 6 to be a good proposition. (And stop with the loser count stuff - start imagining what you need from partner.) Hopefully the heart control bid will put them on the right track, but I don't see how they tell the difference between your hand and the same hand with rounded suits switched. OTOH, I don't see any other way of trying to get partner to tell you if they have 3rd round control of hearts or not.

No

Partner has denied this, not close at all.
Playing Bergen raises this is a gf splinter

Playing Bergen raises you can show the specific D Stiff.

1S-3H!
3S!-4D!
Stiff d 4 spades, 7 loser hand

This is Bergen

_-------

If you prefer opener can just go straight to cuebidding and not ask, your judgement

Remember gf after artificial 3H.

[mw64ahw]

mike777, on 2026-October-09, 20:19, said:

In Bergen 3C shows probably 9 to 9,5 loser hand.
Again 8,5 loser and QH and KS are playing partner for perfect cards

I thought when I last looked at it the examples had max. 8.5 mod. losers & maybe higher LTC.

[mike777]

 mw64ahw, on 2026-October-10, 00:01, said:

I thought when I last looked at it the examples had max. 8.5 mod. losers & maybe higher LTC.

Nope
An 8.5 loser 3C bid is definitely the very best possible hand.

Kxxx...Axx..xx....xxxx
Kxxx...Ax...xxx....xxxx

8.5 adjusted LTC

[mw64ahw]

mike777, on 2026-October-10, 00:02, said:

Nope
An 8.5 loser 3C bid is definitely the very best possible hand.

Kxxx...Axx..xx....xxxx
Kxxx...Ax...xxx....xxxx

8.5 adjusted LTC

I don't think these type of balanced hands fit well with 3-level bids.

[mikeh]

If he has the spade king and heart ace, slam will often be good. Some 4414 would be bad, and 4513 worse but surely 4315 is most likely simply on our shape? But I don’t think 4=3=1=5 is more than 50%…feel free to correct me…I didn’t try to calculate it. So I won’t keycard since I won’t know what to do over the answer I want to hear…5H. I’ve made two slam tries already. 3D might have been a game try, as I play it, but I’d not have bid 4C if 3D was merely a game try.

I’m worth one more: 4H.

Then it’s up to partner.

Unfortunately I don’t think I’ve helped him much. Back some years ago it was popular in some circles to play the first cuebid, in a slammish auction, ideally showed a source of tricks as well as a control. But I don’t personally know anyone who plays that style. So partner doesn’t know anything useful, to him, about my hand.

Having said that, I think he will often bid on with hands that offer reasonable play for slam….and maybe we can still stop below 6S.

[awm]

I wonder what 4♣ over 3♣ would’ve been. It’s hard to believe a slam try with no red suit control. If it’s a splinter that would be a good way to describe this hand that might help partner more than cuebidding.

[jillybean]

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Partner did have that magic 4315 hand. We did make 6 but didn’t bid it.
I know I have a heck of a long way to go with hand evaluation and in particular, constructing partner’s hand but I’m happy to be thinking slam here.

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-October-09, 16:12, said:

I’d bid 4S when I’ve opened on AKxxx,KJxx,xx,xx

Do you also spend a lot of time in casinos?

[jillybean]

WasWinM, on 2026-October-10, 07:32, said:

Do you also spend a lot of time in casinos?

Definitely some, but thankfully not a lot. I quickly realized this wasn't going to be a winning proposition for me.

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-October-10, 07:19, said:

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Partner did have that magic 4315 hand. We did make 6 but didn’t bid it.
I know I have a heck of a long way to go with hand evaluation and in particular, constructing partner’s hand but I’m happy to be thinking slam here.

Bob Hamman is claimed to have once said, If you need me to have one card for slam, I never have it, or something along those lines.

[mike777]

Fwiw JB I would bid a Bergen 3D, limit raise. I don't think it is close.
Whatever your preferred way of showing a 4 card limit raise, do it
For me using Adjusted Losing Trick Count it is easily a limit raise.

Using the more sophisticated hand building techniques I think you can come up with a lot of hands you want partner to bid game, so make the limit raise.

---------

After the limit raise, partner will definitely look for the slam.

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I would only add perhaps consider moving away from only looking at your HCP (7-9)
And using other valuation models.

Of course visualizing and hand building partners possible hands during the bidding is always the ultimate learning goal for us.