[jillybean]

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Playing losing trick count, what is your thinking?

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-September-18, 10:21, said:

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Playing losing trick count, what is your thinking?

Does 3C show extras? If not, will I be able to bid 3H and not have partner think its a stopper ask? Seriously, if not, I bid 4H. If partner is 5-5, the right, 5-5, I've probably underbid. But then, surely partner would have splintered, or am I playing that system where 2C can be nothing but a game forcing noise so we don't know if there's a legitimate fit?
None of this has to do with LTC, you might have noticed. Mainly because LTC is a lot like Blackwood, something to double check to keep you from going overboard without the proper number of rubber ducks.

[jillybean]

3♣ neither promises or denies extras.

This question is posted because one half of the partnership uses LTC, the other doesn't, and frankly the marriage counselor isn't cheap.

[mw64ahw]

LTC 7, Mod. LTC 6.5
I would need 3♣ to show extras for the slam try

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2026-September-18, 10:21, said:

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Playing losing trick count, what is your thinking?

3H, I do have three key cards, Aces, and the Q of Hearts.

Adjusted LTC=
7 losers plus...
Add one loser for assumed 8 card trump heart fit.
Subtract one loser for double fit, hearts and clubs.
Subtract 0.5 loser for extra Aces..

so 7+1-1-0.5=6.5+ LTC, nothing special. As others mentioned you need partner to have a lot of extras, a lot.

[DavidKok]

3♥. We had a strong heart raise. Set hearts.

I understand enthusiasm for 6♣, with the double fit and this many aces. But I think the chance that we belong in game is large, and then I prefer 4♥ to 5♣.

Traditional LTC undervalues aces (and overvalues queens). I prefer a modified LTC, which puts this hand at 6.5, and then justifies upgrading for the double fit (notice how this disagrees with mike's calculation). Still, that's no slam force. More importantly, it's no substitute for visualisation and hand evaluation.

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2026-September-18, 11:35, said:

3♣ neither promises or denies extras.

This question is posted because one half of the partnership uses LTC, the other doesn't, and frankly the marriage counselor isn't cheap.

Id bid 3♥ and let partner take it from there.

[akwoo]

What's the worst hand partner can have that makes slam cold?

Slam is cold on

xx AKxxx x KQxxx

Okay - partner can certainly have that and pass 4H, so I need to bid 3H.

Of course partner isn't so likely to have a 5th club, so we'll need another trick somewhere. It's possible that 6C is the only slam that makes (xx AKxxx xx KQxx); I think we still have a way of looking for that after 3H.

All these counting things are crutches for players who can't visualize.

[mike777]

Smile

Just try saying at your local club

Visualize

" Your hand is, two small, AK fifth, two small, KQ fourth...my hand is Ace small, Queen third, Ace Jack fourth and Ace fourth.,how would you bid it?"

Funny enough for us old enough, before hand records , was a very typical conversation.


Smile.

[akwoo]

mike777, on 2026-September-18, 12:43, said:

Smile

Just try saying at your local club

Visualize

" Your hand is, two small, AK fifth, two small, KQ fourth...my hand is Ace small, Queen third, Ace Jack fourth and Ace fourth.,how would you bid it?"

Funny enough for us old enough, before hand records , was a very typical conversation.


Smile.

Even back 30 years ago, you ask an average player - here are two hands - what do you expect you'd be able to make? - and the response would be a blank stare that basically says - how do you expect a mortal like me to be answer a question like that?

The best players at the club - the ones that talk about hands? Sure they could, or would quickly learn, to do that (or learn it's not worth it for them to talk about hands). Most players? No - unless your club had already scared away most players.

[jillybean]

For those following LTC, is 4♥/3♣ suggested?

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-September-18, 17:35, said:

For those following LTC, is 4♥/3♣ suggested?

No,no no
You have 3 key cards plus the Q of hearts
Plus a double fit



Easy 3H

But after that more difficult..

[steve2005]

mike777, on 2026-September-18, 18:12, said:

No,no no
You have 3 key cards plus the Q of hearts
Plus a double fit

Easy 3H

But after that more difficult..

Exactly, why are you playing 2/1 if you bid 4H/5C?

[mike777]

 steve2005, on 2026-September-18, 19:26, said:

Exactly, why are you playing 2/1 if you bid 4H/5C?

I would if dead minimum, why not?

Some others play it as a "picture bid"
I don't.

[steve2005]

mike777, on 2026-September-18, 19:40, said:

I would if dead minimum, why not?

Some others play it as a "picture bid"
I don't.

I meant if (You have 3 key cards plus the Q of hearts)
not a dead minimum

[jillybean]

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I made 6 — lucky perhaps, but that's not really the point.
Talking it over afterwards, partner walked me through the LTC numbers behind the 4♥ bid, and mentioned I could've gone on with extras.
Made me wonder, though — if we're bidding this way, what's the point of playing 2/1?

[DavidKok]

Your partner misbid. Furthermore, they used their lack of understanding of LTC [sic] as a way to pin the blame on you.

My personal policy is to not jump on a 2/1 auction, even when it is correct*. This costs sometimes, but it saves me so so many problems. 4♥ does not exist in my system, and would prompt me to schedule a system discussion when convenient. Stop jumping on my slam auction, especially paired with such awful hand evaluation.

*I actually make an exception for opener's rebid (setting trumps) and some specific splinters.

[TMorris]

I don't use LTC. I have tried and the results make no sense to me. I have a partner who does and uses it to open distributional 8 counts at the one level, amongst other things. Discussing it is a waste of time so I don't bother any more. He is a decent card player but if you are in game with five top losers it doesn't matter.

I have seen both here and at the other site top class players saying they don't use LTC and don't know other similar players who do. If you have a partner who uses it I think you just accept that the results will be nonsensical from time to time. What you don't do is assume it is your fault for your partner's system.

[jillybean]

Perhaps I need to find a nice way to say, sorry, I can't play with a LunaTiC

This is my style

DavidKok, on 2026-September-19, 05:26, said:

My personal policy is to not jump on a 2/1 auction, even when it is correct*. This costs sometimes, but it saves me so so many problems. 4♥ does not exist in my system, and would prompt me to schedule a system discussion when convenient. Stop jumping on my slam auction, especially paired with such awful hand evaluation.

The system discussion was brief and included a comment about the other table's auction reaching the slam because of the sophisticated Precision system they play.
I'm having as much luck finding a forums-minded bridge partner as Trump has making Canada the 51st state.

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-September-18, 23:57, said:

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I made 6 — lucky perhaps, but that's not really the point.
Talking it over afterwards, partner walked me through the LTC numbers behind the 4♥ bid, and mentioned I could've gone on with extras.
Made me wonder, though — if we're bidding this way, what's the point of playing 2/1?

I'm curious what motivated you to jump to 4H. Even die hard proponents of fast arrival don't jump to game unless they are minimum for their bidding.