[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2026-September-11, 13:08, said:

I don't understand. You think partner could have an opening hand? I suspect you are in an extremely small minority. Construct an opening hand on which he has a reasonable expectation that the opps, one of whom did NOT overcall at the one level, have a good play for 11 tricks. Please avoid creating very low frequency freaks. Catering to freaks held by the opps, in one's constructive auctions, is a great way to lose every event you enter.

In the context of you holding KJ 8th and out, which was the post I was replying to.

[DavidKok]

 WasWinM, on 2026-September-11, 20:58, said:

Shouldn't it be the best way to describe a hand rather than just jamming the bidding no matter which side of the table you preempt, yippe kay yay.

No! A bid for every hand, not a hand for every bid. We don't jump four levels to describe a hand - use lower bids to limit the hand first and let partner participate in the auction.

There are so, so many possible auctions to 5♦ (for example, >500,000 constructive auctions). The direct one is the least informative of all. Obviously people don't actually use those 0.5 million options well, but there's no need to go to the other extreme and commit to the literal worst one.

[Kaitlyn S]

DavidKok, on 2026-September-12, 01:11, said:

No! A bid for every hand, not a hand for every bid. We don't jump four levels to describe a hand - use lower bids to limit the hand first and let partner participate in the auction.

There are so, so many possible auctions to 5♦ (for example, >500,000 constructive auctions). The direct one is the least informative of all. Obviously people don't actually use those 0.5 million options well, but there's no need to go to the other extreme and commit to the literal worst one.

I botched this analysis by assuming that there was an initial pass before the 1D opener. Much of it still applies.
I might agree that it is the worst one if the rules of the game allowed partner and myself to bid undisturbed. However, we are playing under a different ruleset here. Let's look at a possible hand for the jump to 5D. -, 87542, KT96432, 9. Partner can bid slowly and find a possible heart fit. Do you really want to find a heart fit here? If you have one, you are potentially giving the opponents a chance to find their double fit in the black suits, and may face an uncomfortable decision to sacrifice at a very high level - higher than 5 anyway. Indeed both opponents have passed.

Much of the next paragraph (shaded in green) is nonsense with East not having a chance to bid until the 5D call.However, there's nothing saying that East didn't want to open 2S with 6-5 in the blacks, preferring to try to get doubled later, or perhaps because she didn't think her suit was good enough to preempt. Trust me, if you bid hearts, East isn't passing again with 6-5. I think it's far better to pop up to 5D and let the opponents make the guess. Yes, you could miss a slam if your partner has a shapely 18 count and partner can't figure out why you would bid 5D, which seems likely from what I've seen. However, you get to 6D opposite mike777 and WasWinM who took a moment to figure out why you might have bid 5D.
With no initial pass from East, West isn't likely to have the stronger hand anymore. Also, it's possible that West is short in diamonds now without enough to bid, and the East has a large hand with no suitable call. The green stuff doesn't apply anymore.There is a fair amount of evidence that East has a diamond void. West likely has the stronger hand but didn't enter the auction after 1D. Almost any hand close to an opening hand gets in the auction with a singleton diamond. Partner has four. You (holding the 0571 hand) have seven. If West holds two, then East has none and since West wasn't strong enough to enter the auction with a doubleton diamond, then East has enough to come in with her diamond void. Maybe West has something like AK, Qxxx, xx, Qxxxx? If so, East has tons of spades and chose to slow play her hand. More likely West has Qxxx, AK, xx, Qxxxx. If East has a black hand, you will not enjoy the result if you bid the hand slowly. However, unless East has a big hand, the likelihood that East has a diamond void is still high. However, it is now possible (now that I have the auction correct) that West has a diamond void and not enough to bid and that East has about 17 points including the Qx of diamonds, but is too quacky to be comfortable doubling.

The opening post said that it was matchpoints and partner is a good player. With two passing opponents, partner doesn't have xx, xx, KJxxxxx, xx. For all the same inferences are there from the passing opponents and partner's most likely hand is a 2NT rebid and I would prefer to try for ten tricks in notrump. Good defense can be tough to find when you run a seven card suit. Partner fears a big fit against her and wants to make it difficult for the opponents to find it.

Did I win any converts to the 6D camp?

[DavidKok]

I feel like you haven't engaged with my post. Additionally, I am unsatisfied by several of your assertions. My comment was brief because I'm limited by time at the moment, and it pains me to see a response that swings off on such a tangent.

I would not bid 5♦ on most of the example hands you give, and ask my partners to not do so either.

[WasWinM]

 DavidKok, on 2026-September-12, 01:11, said:

No! A bid for every hand, not a hand for every bid. We don't jump four levels to describe a hand - use lower bids to limit the hand first and let partner participate in the auction.

There are so, so many possible auctions to 5♦ (for example, >500,000 constructive auctions). The direct one is the least informative of all. Obviously people don't actually use those 0.5 million options well, but there's no need to go to the other extreme and commit to the literal worst one.

When partner opens 1D, how do you describe xx, x, KJxxxxxxx, x at a lower level? Do you want to lanquish in 2 or 3 diamonds when he has 3 aces and out? You want to call 5D a preempt, fine, call it that. I think it is the best descriptive bid he can make and he hopes the contract makes, because he's pretty certain they have 9 tricks. Maybe partner can contribute 2. Or more?
The one thing it isn't is trying to take control of the bidding when you have too little information to do so. This is part of what makes the game so fun. Every so often a hand comes along that doesn't fit and known system, and you have to deal with it, hopefully by making the most descriptive bid you can think of and hoping partner can work out why you did what you did.

[Kaitlyn S]

 DavidKok, on 2026-September-12, 11:04, said:

I feel like you haven't engaged with my post. Additionally, I am unsatisfied by several of your assertions. My comment was brief because I'm limited by time at the moment, and it pains me to see a response that swings off on such a tangent.

I would not bid 5♦ on most of the example hands you give, and ask my partners to not do so either.

I am not sure where the tangent is, my entire post was literally what might be going through partner's mind when considering a 5D call.
I am looking forward to a point where you don't have limited time so I can see where you find my assumptions uncompelling.
BTW, what do you respond to 1D with 5 small hearts, king seventh of diamonds, and a club? Just for fun, try to construct a normal hand where your bid works well. I put "normal" in there because I can see where 1H might work better opposite QT9, AKQx, Axxx, Ax, but that example belongs in "Hands In Polyanna's Dreams".

[WasWinM]

Cyberyeti, on 2026-September-11, 12:48, said:

Why not, partner can have a more than legit opener and no defence to 5M (or even 6 in an extreme case)

And you know all this based on his 1D opening bid? So you commandeer the auction (yippee kay yay) based on your family's history of an aunt who was a psychic? I'm old fashioned. I still think bridge is best played as a partnership game.

[Cyberyeti]

WasWinM, on 2026-September-13, 14:24, said:

And you know all this based on his 1D opening bid? So you commandeer the auction (yippee kay yay) based on your family's history of an aunt who was a psychic? I'm old fashioned. I still think bridge is best played as a partnership game.

I don't, but:

It's very likely somebody is making something at the 5 level if I have KJ 8th and out, so I bid what I'm prepared to bid

Maybe opps fit is in clubs, and neither of them feels like bidding at the 6 level

[kerkido]

Very confusing thread. Some people are saying they wouldn't bid 5♦ with KJ 8th and out, but none of them has said what they'd actually bid instead. 2♦ inverted minor raise? 3♦ weak? Pass, let the opponents find their fit, and then bid 5♦?

WasWinM seems to be arguing both sides at once, first saying he'd bid 5♦, then saying that's a bad idea..

[pescetom]

kerkido, on 2026-September-13, 15:42, said:

Very confusing thread. Some people are saying they wouldn't bid 5♦ with KJ 8th and out, but none of them has said what they'd actually bid instead. 2♦ inverted minor raise? 3♦ weak? Pass, let the opponents find their fit, and then bid 5♦?

WasWinM seems to be arguing both sides at once, first saying he'd bid 5♦, then saying that's a bad idea..

I agree that the thread is confusing. It's an unusual situation and maybe some people are hedging their bets or struggling to recognise that their own style is not universal.
I'm one of those who would never respond 5♦ on a hand that might make game opposite a minimum or even a bit more. In our rather unusual system, depending upon the hand the options are 1M if possible, 2♦ weak, 3♦ invitational or 2♣ nebulous game force.
Pass is not an option but yes we can still bid 5♦ later if opponents are predictably frisky.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2026-September-13, 15:55, said:

I agree that the thread is confusing. It's an unusual situation and maybe some people are hedging their bets or struggling to recognise that their own style is not universal.
I'm one of those who would never respond 5♦ on a hand that might make game opposite a minimum or even a bit more. In our rather unusual system, depending upon the hand the options are 1M if possible, 2♦ weak, 3♦ invitational or 2♣ nebulous game force.
Pass is not an option but yes we can still bid 5♦ later if opponents are predictably frisky.

So what do you bid on xx, x, Kxxxxxxx, xx or similar ? or x, void, Kxxxxx(x), xxxxx(x)

Also what is 4♦

[kerkido]

pescetom, on 2026-September-13, 15:55, said:

I'm one of those who would never respond 5♦ on a hand that might make game opposite a minimum or even a bit more. In our rather unusual system, depending upon the hand the options are 1M if possible, 2♦ weak, 3♦ invitational or 2♣ nebulous game force.

You just joined the club of those ruling out 5♦ without actually saying which of the other seemingly bad options you'd choose instead, or why If as you stated your concern is that game might make opposite a minimum, I guess you're ruling out 2♦ weak, 3♦ invitational, so you're bidding 2♣ GF and your system has a way for partner to find out your GF hands include ones with 3 HCP later?

[Kaitlyn S]

pescetom, on 2026-September-13, 15:55, said:

...I'm one of those who would never respond 5♦ on a hand that might make game opposite a minimum or even a bit more...

My example hand, --, xxxxx, Kxxxxxx, x can easily make 5D opposite a minimum opener. But can partner really have a minimum opener? Partner showed four diamonds and West passed over 1D so I presume that West has two and East has none. Let's try to construct a possible hand where neither East nor West bid.
In this example, a disciplined West won't overcall a four card spade suit, or overcall the weak clubs, or double with two hearts.
East would like to enter the auction but double is likely to be passed out and guessing a suit at the five level seems a bit crazy.
N-S make 5D and E-W are cold for 6S or 6C (after finding the spade and with friendly hearts.)
The lower that North bids on her first bid, the less likely that N-S get to play diamonds. North might get away with 4D but certainly not anything less. Also, East is likely to double 4D for takeout.
I freely admit that my hand was a creative construction. It is far more likely IMO that South has a stronger hand when both East and West pass with a maximum of two diamonds between them.

---

David, I can see why you didn't like some of my assumptions. I wrote that entire thesis based on an initial pass before the 1D bid which apparently didn't happen. Let me try to change my analysis to one without the initial pass. I'll leave the analysis there but make changes in red.

[WasWinM]

kerkido, on 2026-September-13, 15:42, said:

Very confusing thread. Some people are saying they wouldn't bid 5♦ with KJ 8th and out, but none of them has said what they'd actually bid instead. 2♦ inverted minor raise? 3♦ weak? Pass, let the opponents find their fit, and then bid 5♦?

WasWinM seems to be arguing both sides at once, first saying he'd bid 5♦, then saying that's a bad idea..

You are so wrong about that claim. All I've done is try to answer the posted question: in this scenario, what do you think the 5D bidder holds. I then went on to explain that there are hands that have no clear answer and because it's a partnership game above all, you do your best to describe your hand: 5D can certainly be one of those, more so for someone who says he wouldn't do it. I say that because in a certain circumstance, it may be the most descriptive bid, which is the point of bidding. If it helps also to block the opponents, that's great too, but preempting them is not the point of the bid, although it may be a benefit of the bid.

In the original question, it was stated that partner was a good player and that the bidding began 1D-Pass-5D. I showed what I thought a good player would hold, and my reasons for saying it and the bid I would make with the big hand. I still stand by all of that without a weasel in my pocket, nor a wolverine.

[WasWinM]

Kaitlyn S, on 2026-September-13, 18:44, said:

My example hand, --, xxxxx, Kxxxxxx, x can easily make 5D opposite a minimum opener. But can partner really have a minimum opener? Partner showed four diamonds and West passed over 1D so I presume that West has two and East has none. Let's try to construct a possible hand where neither East nor West bid.
In this example, a disciplined West won't overcall a four card spade suit, or overcall the weak clubs, or double with two hearts.
East would like to enter the auction but double is likely to be passed out and guessing a suit at the five level seems a bit crazy.
N-S make 5D and E-W are cold for 6S or 6C (after finding the spade and with friendly hearts.)
The lower that North bids on her first bid, the less likely that N-S get to play diamonds. North might get away with 4D but certainly not anything less. Also, East is likely to double 4D for takeout.
I freely admit that my hand was a creative construction. It is far more likely IMO that South has a stronger hand when both East and West pass with a maximum of two diamonds between them.

---

David, I can see why you didn't like some of my assumptions. I wrote that entire thesis based on an initial pass before the 1D bid which apparently didn't happen. Let me try to change my analysis to one without the initial pass. I'll leave the analysis there but make changes in red.

The original posted was 1D-P-5D, so there is one pass in there.

[kerkido]

WasWinM, on 2026-September-14, 10:08, said:

You are so wrong about that claim.

Well, I'm not wrong that that was it *seemed* to me, but yes, wrong in terms of that not being what you actually intended to convey Got a bit confusing when you talked about not wanting to preempt your partner, and the bit about not commandeering the auction, since 5♦ does both, but I think I get (most of) what you actually meant now.

Still baffling that nobody is able to come up with an alternative though.

[WasWinM]

kerkido, on 2026-September-14, 21:12, said:

Well, I'm not wrong that that was it *seemed* to me, but yes, wrong in terms of that not being what you actually intended to convey Got a bit confusing when you talked about not wanting to preempt your partner, and the bit about not commandeering the auction, since 5♦ does both, but I think I get (most of) what you actually meant now.

Still baffling that nobody is able to come up with an alternative though.

Not a problem. It happens to me, too, (probably everyone) if I (they) come to a thread late and don't carefully read it all from the start.

[pescetom]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2026-September-13, 18:44, said:

My example hand, --, xxxxx, Kxxxxxx, x can easily make 5D opposite a minimum opener. But can partner really have a minimum opener? Partner showed four diamonds and West passed over 1D so I presume that West has two and East has none. Let's try to construct a possible hand where neither East nor West bid.
In this example, a disciplined West won't overcall a four card spade suit, or overcall the weak clubs, or double with two hearts.
East would like to enter the auction but double is likely to be passed out and guessing a suit at the five level seems a bit crazy.
N-S make 5D and E-W are cold for 6S or 6C (after finding the spade and with friendly hearts.)
The lower that North bids on her first bid, the less likely that N-S get to play diamonds. North might get away with 4D but certainly not anything less. Also, East is likely to double 4D for takeout.
I freely admit that my hand was a creative construction. It is far more likely IMO that South has a stronger hand when both East and West pass with a maximum of two diamonds between them.

---

It seems that the Bismarck ducked out of this battle, so let me play Prinz Eugen

I have no issue with your constructed example.
I would contemplate a weak 2♥ as North, but prefer 3♦ invitational (no inverted minors).
Double in East looks automatic.
I wouldn't crucify South for any call, but 4♦ looks normal to me.
Now West has a tricky choice of black suit, North has an easy 5♦ and an equally easy later sacrifice over 5♠.

FWIW, I bothered our system designer about what 1♦-5♦ should mean: his reply "it should never happen, but if it does, up to you"

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the hand with the 5 card heart suit is not possible, why one should bid 5D instead of 1H is beyond me.
You could sell me a hand a with a weak 4 card heart suit and 7 diamonds, but not a hand with 5 card heart
suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-September-17, 23:34, said:

Hi,

the hand with the 5 card heart suit is not possible, why one should bid 5D instead of 1H is beyond me.
You could sell me a hand a with a weak 4 card heart suit and 7 diamonds, but not a hand with 5 card heart
suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

If you want to be defending a spade or club contract, bid 1♥, get in first