[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-August-24, 07:28, said:

I’d like to see how this is bid with unbalanced ♦.

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With the ugly duckling predecessor (unbalanced 1NT) we might bid either:

__________ 1N
2♠ (range ask) - 2N (min)
3♥ (clubs, splinter) - 3♠
4♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 4N (even)
5♦ - 5♠
7♣ - P


or at MP:

__________ 1N
2♣ (ask) - 2♦ (no 5cM)
3♥(clubs) - 4♣ (fix)
4♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 4N (even)
5♦ - 5♠
7♣ - P

[mikeh]

I play an unbalanced 1D but I wouldn’t open this 1D in a strong notrump seat (we play variable 1N). Why? For the same reason mainstream players open this 1N. 16 hcp is a difficult range to show after 1D. It’s not strong enough to reverse…even those players who consider a good 16 enough (I need a great 16) would likely jibe at the notion that this hand is a good 16.

So one is left opening 1D and, over a 1S response,having to underbid/distort shape via 1N or overbid via 2H or distort shape in a different way by bidding either 2C or 2D. All of the above make the offshape 1N clearly the best of the various imperfect choices. Anyone who claims an easy auction after 1D 1S or 1N is kidding…themselves or us. Even specialized methods would struggle. I doubt many Gazilli players would enjoy bidding 2C (I may be wrong here…I know a bit about Gazilli but haven’t played it).

Of course, on the actual hand 1D works wonderfully, regardless of whether it’s unbalanced or not. If we were NV, I’d have to open 1D since 1N is 10-13.

1D 2C natural, gf.

Opener has the worlds easiest 2H bid, regardless of whether, as I do, it shows a little extra.

Raising clubs is imo very poor. Responder, playing normal methods, could easily have 4 hearts and longer clubs. Why throw the heart suit away? Btw, after 1D 2C 3C 3H, I doubt there’s a good player anywhere in the world who plays that as showing a 4 card suit. It’s a probe for 3N and the last thing responder usually wants to see is a ‘raise’.

No…by far the best route is 2H. Over this we can handle virtually any action responder is likely to take.

2S…we bid 3C, showing our 1=4=5=3 or less likely 0=4=6=3.

2N…we bid 3C, again showing our shape

3C….we bid 4S, splinter, or 4C, inviting a 4D cue. I prefer 4C…4S makes a diamond cue comfortable high.

3D….our diamond fit will be as good or better than clubs so we’ve found trump. I’d bid 3S (not 3H which is how I’d bid 5=6 reds)

3H…perfect. We have a good trump suit and I’ll cue 3S to see what happens. I’ll pull an improbable natural 3N to 4C

And so on. I’d pass a jump to 3N unless we have an agreement that this shows significant extras.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2026-August-24, 15:11, said:

Raising clubs is imo very poor. Responder, playing normal methods, could easily have 4 hearts and longer clubs. Why throw the heart suit away? Btw, after 1D 2C 3C 3H, I doubt there’s a good player anywhere in the world who plays that as showing a 4 card suit. It’s a probe for 3N and the last thing responder usually wants to see is a ‘raise’.

I really need some help regarding shape vs. stoppers

[WasWinM]

I'm trying real hard to remember but it seems like in Mike Lawrence's version of 2/1 he advocated that a raise of a minor suit 2/1 should be based on either 4-card support or extra value. A rebid of opener's major was kind of the catch-all bid when no other bids fit the system; however, it's like MikeH said, if you have extras and a 4-card major there is no reason to bury the major by raising partner's minor immediately.

[DavidKok]

mikeh, on 2026-August-24, 15:11, said:

Even specialized methods would struggle. I doubt many Gazilli players would enjoy bidding 2C (I may be wrong here…I know a bit about Gazilli but haven’t played it).

I agree with the whole post and just wanted to elaborate that in the Gazzilli structure I know over unbalanced diamond we use the 1NT bid, not the 2♣ bid, as the artificial option (showing 16+ almost any hand with at most 3-card support, or 11-15 6(+)♦ max 2♠3♥). On this opening hand such an artificial 1NT would help, allowing the auction 1♦-1♠; 1NT*-2♣*; 2♥.

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2026-August-25, 00:09, said:

I agree with the whole post and just wanted to elaborate that in the Gazzilli structure I know over unbalanced diamond we use the 1NT bid, not the 2♣ bid, as the artificial option (showing 16+ almost any hand with at most 3-card support, or 11-15 6(+)♦ max 2♠3♥). On this opening hand such an artificial 1NT would help, allowing the auction 1♦-1♠; 1NT*-2♣*; 2♥.

Does West really bid 1♠ on this hand?

[jillybean]

WasWinM, on 2026-August-24, 20:07, said:

I'm trying real hard to remember but it seems like in Mike Lawrence's version of 2/1 he advocated that a raise of a minor suit 2/1 should be based on either 4-card support or extra value. A rebid of opener's major was kind of the catch-all bid when no other bids fit the system; however, it's like MikeH said, if you have extras and a 4-card major there is no reason to bury the major by raising partner's minor immediately.

Are extras the deciding factor here? Would you raise clubs with a 12-count?

[mike777]

Are you asking a general question, what happens after a start of

1D-2C
3C-?

In 2/1 bidding?


If so then you first need to clarify
What the 3C bid shows or denies..


I would think for many 3C promises long clubs and denies a four card major.


Otherwise after 2C
rebid a four card major or
Rebid long D or
Rebid 2NT showing a wkNT


I think a major question would be with a balanced hand and a four card major do you rebid 2NT or the 4card major?


I prefer to rebid 2NT.

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2026-August-25, 08:50, said:

Are you asking a general question, what happens after a start of

1D-2C
3C-?

In 2/1 bidding?


If so then you first need to clarify
What the 3C bid shows or denies..


I would think for many 3C promises long clubs and denies a four card major.

For me 3C promises 4+ clubs, 5+ diamonds, denies a four card major and suggests at least mild extra values.

Now 3D annulls the apparent (as we bid, Responder did not guarantee clubs) fit in clubs and fixes trumps, inviting control-bids.
3H/S confirms the fit in clubs and is either a stopper for 3NT or a control-bid.
3NT is an offer to play, but Opener will reopen with a strong hand.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2026-August-25, 08:50, said:

Are you asking a general question, what happens after a start of

1D-2C
3C-?

In 2/1 bidding?


If so then you first need to clarify
What the 3C bid shows or denies..


I would think for many 3C promises long clubs and denies a four card major.


Otherwise after 2C
rebid a four card major or
Rebid long D or
Rebid 2NT showing a wkNT


I think a major question would be with a balanced hand and a four card major do you rebid 2NT or the 4card major?


I prefer to rebid 2NT.

For us, 2♣ over 1♦ shows clubs. I like the Italian system, but we aren't there yet.

I can see why it is best for opener to bid a four-card major rather than support clubs when holding a strong hand.
However, everything else feels murky, and I don't usually have this level of partnership discussion.

If opener shows a four-card major with an 11–14 HCP hand, but responder doesn't have a fit or a no-trump bid, the auction gets difficult.
In that scenario, does a delayed club support promise three cards? Would you have made an immediate raise with a 0-4-5-4 shape?

A balanced hand with a four-card major like 3-4-4-2? I would bid the major if it is worthy, but otherwise default to 2NT.

edit: great discussions but not so useful with only one half of the partnership(s) in the discussion. However, no worries, I opened 1nt and we played in 7

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2026-August-25, 10:21, said:

For us, 2♣ over 1♦ shows clubs. I like the Italian system, but we aren't there yet.

I can see why it is best for opener to bid a four-card major rather than support clubs when holding a strong hand.
However, everything else feels murky, and I don't usually have this level of partnership discussion.

If opener shows a four-card major with an 11–14 HCP hand, but responder doesn't have a fit or a no-trump bid, the auction gets difficult.
In that scenario, does a delayed club support promise three cards? Would you have made an immediate raise with a 0-4-5-4 shape?

A balanced hand with a four-card major like 3-4-4-2? I would bid the major if it is worthy, but otherwise default to 2NT.

edit: great discussions but not so useful with only one half of the partnership(s) in the discussion. However, no worries, I opened 1nt and we played in 7

, Not sure what you are asking. Can you give me one example of your question?

In general, none of this is a discussion with the vast majority of your partners. You just play it.
If confusion comes up, discuss after.

in 2/1

3442 I would open 1D, after 2C by pard, rebid 2nt, why? I am balanced with a wkNT


0454

Open 1d, after 2c by pard, rebid 2H, why? I am unbalanced.


Again do you have a specific deal that is giving you problems?

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2026-August-25, 10:50, said:

Again do you have a specific deal that is giving you problems?

No

[WasWinM]

jillybean, on 2026-August-25, 08:25, said:

Are extras the deciding factor here? Would you raise clubs with a 12-count?

Only with 4-card support.

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2026-August-25, 10:50, said:

, Not sure what you are asking. Can you give me one example of your question?

In general, none of this is a discussion with the vast majority of your partners. You just play it.
If confusion comes up, discuss after.

in 2/1

3442 I would open 1D, after 2C by pard, rebid 2nt, why? I am balanced with a wkNT


0454

Open 1d, after 2c by pard, rebid 2H, why? I am unbalanced.


Again do you have a specific deal that is giving you problems?

What mike777 is saying is that natural logic and partnership trust is usually enough to determine 2/1 bidding, once you have excluded dubious agreements like a 2D response that might be 4 cards or Opener's reverse promising extras. The nebulous Italian 2♣ that might not be clubs can be handled with the same natural logic.

In this case of 1D opening, the Italian 2♣ is the least of your worries: if she does not have 5 clubs she has diamonds support and will show it, fixing trumps.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-August-24, 17:34, said:

I really need some help regarding shape vs. stoppers

I thought I’d posted a reply…I typed one but it doesn’t seem to have made it to the thread. Hence the delay

I’ve never had to think this out…it’s been my understanding of basic bidding for many years, so I hope this is of help.

When both partners are bidding minors, so either 1C 1D or 1D 2C, I suggest the rule should be: never raise partner’s minor if you have a 4 card major that it’s possible for partner to also hold.

If you own a 4 card major but partner, having had a chance to bid it, has denied holding 4 cards in that suit, a bid of the major is not ‘natural’. It’s either a notrump probe or a cuebid…if below 3N then partner assumes a probe, but you can reveal that it was a cue by pulling 3N, should partner bid it.

There are wrinkles. For example, many play a Walsh style such that after 1C 1D opener only bids 1M with an unbalanced hand. This is a special case.

1C 1D 1N….Walsh players could be 4=4 in the majors, but responder won’t have a major unless he has a strong hand (I require responder to have game values, others may allow it with invitational). In any event, any Walsh style partnership will know how to look for a hypothetical 4=4 major fit over 1N.

My suggested rule works well, I think, n the OP hand, assuming a 1D opening bid. 1D 2C…opener NEVER raises clubs if he has a 4 card major. Since we’re in a forcing auction we can get back to clubs unless we find a major suit fit or partner reveals that he had a gf diamond fit as well as enough clubs to bid 2C.

So early on in an auction, we’re describing shape and strength, in a general way. Later rounds tend to be more about searching for the right level and strain, with late introduced ‘suits’ not being an offer to play but cuebids, notrump probes, mark time bids, splinters, keycard etc.

[strong 1c]

jillybean, on 2026-August-23, 08:30, said:

---

Our (unusual) bid is 2H showing precisely 4 hearts and a longer minor. Partner asks for the minor with a 2NT bid and I respond 3D (natural) and if partner is inclined, he can ask controls with a 4C bid and I show him 5 via a 4NT bid showing both Aces and a King.

[jillybean]

MH You know I dislike rules, but this one seems ok. It is very helpful seeing it laid out like this.
I have started playing Walsh with some partners, of course we have never discussed the wrinkle but I assume xyz takes care of that.

[blackshoe]

I will open 1NT. Partner will transfer me to spades at the four level. I will go down one.