[mikl_plkcc]

Playing 2/1 game forcing. My table

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Other table

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Where is our mistake not being able to find slam?

[mike777]

North did not trust south.
Does not trust south at all
As such North misbids their hand over and over again
Partnership trust issues.

[hrothgar]

So few thoughts here:

After 1♥, its possible to make arguments in favor of either 1♠ or 2♦.
Presuming that the auction starts with 2♦, 3♥ should set the trump suit.
I would interpret 3!S as a cue bid in support of Hearts and NOT patterning out.

I'm not particularly enamored with the auction at the other table (especially the 3N bid after the double)

[pescetom]

Bidding from a strange parallel universe.

Table 1, I'm happy with 2♦ but then N has a clear raise of ♦. 3♥ was masterminding and I agree that 3♠ then should be a control setting trumps in hearts. 5♦ is yes I was masterminding.

Table 2, 1♠ is legitimate but perverse IMO: we have a singleton in opener's suit and are hiding our great diamonds for no convincing reason.
3♣ unalerted after 2NT followed by 6♦ is incomprehensible even as a psyche, unless she trusts West more than companion.

[bgm]

Besides the method and gadgets being used, one of the most fundamental thing is to picture the partner's hand.

From N perspective, we have a (semi-)solid 6 card ♥ suit, plus Axx support for parter's ♦ suit

What hand can partner bid 2♦ over 1♥ with a passed hand?

If we can picture partner has, e.g. ♦ KQxxx (not that demanding?), then we can already count 5♦ (with 3-2 break) + 6♥ + 1♠ = 12 tricks. That means as long as partner has ♣ controlled, you should force to small slam at least.

So the strategy could be:
1. Fit ♦
2. Check if partner has ♣ control
3. In case partner has first round ♣ control, see if partner has extra for grand - but it depends on your opening style - what is the upper limit of a passed hand.

[Huibertus]

I actually don't like 2 ♦ from south but is works like magic on this hand.

The first thing I'd think of as north after opening 1♥ and seeing partner responding "I have 5♦ and we are going to game" is "will it be 6 or 7♦ or maybe 7NT?" So i'm keeping bidding simple.

I'd start with supporting ♦ with 3♦ and then follow up with RKCB for ♦ regardless of what partner does. All you want to know of is if partner has ♦KQ, ♣A. If he has all 3, I'm counting 6♥,5♦ and 2 Aces and bid 7NT. If he has only two it'll be 6♦.

[Huibertus]

hrothgar, on 2025-June-13, 12:09, said:

I'm not particularly enamored with the auction at the other table (especially the 3N bid after the double)

That is a very valid remark. After south did bid ♠ and ♦ he should be able to trust north to have the ♣ stopped after 3♣-Double for the full 100%.

[mikl_plkcc]

pescetom, on 2025-June-13, 12:32, said:

Bidding from a strange parallel universe.

Table 1, I'm happy with 2♦ but then N has a clear raise of ♦. 3♥ was masterminding and I agree that 3♠ then should be a control setting trumps in hearts. 5♦ is yes I was masterminding.

Table 2, 1♠ is legitimate but perverse IMO: we have a singleton in opener's suit and are hiding our great diamonds for no convincing reason.
3♣ unalerted after 2NT followed by 6♦ is incomprehensible even as a psyche, unless she trusts West more than companion.

Sorry I forgot to put the alert into the diagram. 3♣ was new minor forcing.

[WasWinM]

I don’t find missing slam here much of a sin.
after 1H-1S best I. can come up with is:
3D-4D
4H-5D

and with no club control that ends the auction.

[Cyberyeti]

Cautionary note, I don't play 2/1

1♥-2♦-3♥- sets the suit so S should bid 4♣ unless you have some useful meaning for 3N here

3♠ actually while it ought to be a control should get you to a slam on this hand

4♦ is IMO the right bid, should now be a (high card as it's partner's suit) control, highlighting the lack of a club control

Anything except 4♥ now shows a club control, and now you will get to slam

[jillybean]

At a quick glance , why didn't it start
1H 2D 3D

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2025-June-14, 08:54, said:

At a quick glance , why didn't it start
1H 2D 3D

Passed hand 2♦, are you allowed to pass with xx, KQxxxx, A10x, Ax or is this 3♦, if it's 3♦ then you can't also bid that on this hand.

[mikeh]

Because 3D wouid have been encouraging but I think most wouid play it as non forcing. Responder is a passed hand so 2D is not remotely forcing


Btw, advocates of two way drury, me being one, are ‘saved’ from the 2D response by 2D being a raise of hearts

Further btw, I’d not want to bid 2D anyway. While it wouid work wonderfully here, it almost always loses any 5-3 spade fit. Even if partner bids over 2D my spade bid won’t show 5. Since major suits are where the money is I’d have responded 1S, creating a problem for partner. I’m pretty sure I’d miss slam more often than not

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-June-14, 10:42, said:

Passed hand 2♦, are you allowed to pass with xx, KQxxxx, A10x, Ax or is this 3♦, if it's 3♦ then you can't also bid that on this hand.

Ah, I was responding to the post while on phone, in the car. Read "Playing 2/1 gf and missed the initial pass, I'd be tempted to open this 5161
Since I didn't open, I bid 1S not 2D

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2025-June-14, 11:26, said:

Ah, I was responding to the post while on phone, in the car. Read "Playing 2/1 gf and missed the initial pass, I'd be tempted to open this 5161
Since I didn't open, I bid 1S not 2D

Opening this hand is extraordinarily dangerous. I’d frankly not play with anyone who opened this. It’s masterminding to an extraordinary degree….deliberately mislead partner in terms of your values, both offensive and defensive.

Discipline….far too many players seem to think that to be viewed as a good player they need to mastermind rather than to collaborate with partner in the exchange of information. Of course, masterminding is a great way to be seen as a bad player.

There are some pros who, when playing with a weak player more interested in winning masterpoints than in learning to play well, do things like that, but they know what they’re doing….they simply distrust their partner while also knowing that partner won’t make penalty doubles of the opps very often.

[jillybean]

"Of course, masterminding is a great way to be seen as a bad player."

I did say I would be tempted, I'm tempted by any 65 hand but I think I'm now disciplined enough not to open this in 1st or 2nd seat.
Please share your minimum, 1st seat, 65 opening hand.

[mw64ahw]

It's up to South to bid 6♦
The rebid of 3♥ by North indicates roughly 5.5 mod. losers. Now South has 7 mod. losers so the slam lights should be flashing.
I think 4♦ by North should be sufficient as there is no extra strength to show. This leaves South in a better position to check that North doesn't have a weak doubleton in in ♠.

[Cyberyeti]

MikeH said "Opening this hand is extraordinarily dangerous. I’d frankly not play with anyone who opened this. It’s masterminding to an extraordinary degree….deliberately mislead partner in terms of your values, both offensive and defensive."

How would you feel about an opening bid that was 5-5 spades and a minor say 5-9, is it way too good for that ?

For reference I also respond 1♠ but went with 2♦ because that is what was bid at the table.

[hrothgar]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-June-14, 15:16, said:

MikeH said "Opening this hand is extraordinarily dangerous. I’d frankly not play with anyone who opened this. It’s masterminding to an extraordinary degree….deliberately mislead partner in terms of your values, both offensive and defensive."

How would you feel about an opening bid that was 5-5 spades and a minor say 5-9, is it way too good for that ?

For reference I also respond 1♠ but went with 2♦ because that is what was bid at the table.

Back in the weird old days, the Poles had an opening called the Wikosz 2♦
It showed roughly 7-11 HCPs, at least 5/5 shape and at least one major.

From what I can tell, the primary purpose of the bid was to stop people from stretching to open hands like this one with a one level bid. Many of the really big gains seemed to be situations in which other teams would open light based on their great shape and end up in crappy 3NT contracts, going down

[jillybean]

hrothgar, on 2025-June-14, 15:31, said:

Back in the weird old days, the Poles had an opening called the Wikosz 2♦
It showed roughly 7-11 HCPs, at least 5/5 shape and at least one major.

From what I can tell, the primary purpose of the bid was to stop people from stretching to open hands like this one with a one level bid. Many of the really big gains seemed to be situations in which other teams would open light based on their great shape and end up in crappy 3NT contracts, going down

Good gadget.
What replaced it ?