[mikl_plkcc]

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I want to play in a minor but don't know which one to play, but 4♥ is labelled as a cuebid!

[hrothgar]

How many times do you need to be told that the robots suck?

With this said and done, what would a 3!S bid mean here?
If it's asking for a stopper that might work better than 4!C

[smerriman]

3♣ says you're willing to have partner pass / sign off in their suit if weak, so everything after 3♦ is pretty much undefined. Wouldn't have been my choice.

[johnu]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-16, 17:19, said:

I want to play in a minor but don't know which one to play, but 4♥ is labelled as a cuebid!

So if 4♥ is labelled a cuebid, why would you bid 4♥? Same for your 4♣ bid which doesn't show long clubs.

GIB doesn't play offshape takeout doubles well, or even poorly, in fact, a disaster is the most likely outcome of making an offshape double unless partner miraculously is able to bid your long suit. My advice is never make an offshape takeout double playing with GIB.

[smerriman]

johnu, on 2025-April-16, 20:08, said:

GIB doesn't play offshape takeout doubles well, or even poorly, in fact, a disaster is the most likely outcome of making an offshape double unless partner miraculously is able to bid your long suit. My advice is never make an offshape takeout double playing with GIB.

Obviously agreed in general, but how would you handle this better with a human partner? Surely the passable 3♣ denies the strong off-shape hand, robot or not.

[mikl_plkcc]

smerriman, on 2025-April-16, 18:16, said:

3♣ says you're willing to have partner pass / sign off in their suit if weak, so everything after 3♦ is pretty much undefined. Wouldn't have been my choice.

2NT is Lebensohl, which the partner has no choice but to bid 3♣.

Should I have just overcalled even holding 21 total points?

[hrothgar]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-17, 04:35, said:

2NT is Lebensohl, which the partner has no choice but to bid 3♣.

Lebensohl over a weak two bid + double has some significant differences from Lebensohl after our NT opening.

A 1NT opening is quite well defined. I am struggling to think of a time where I failed to bid 3♣ after partner's 2NT

Conversely, there are all sorts of hands where one would double a weak two bid.
And, because of this, the doubler sometimes needs to make a bid other than 3♣

[smerriman]

 mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-17, 04:35, said:

2NT is Lebensohl, which the partner has no choice but to bid 3♣.

Uh, no, that is not how lebensohl works over weak 2s at all. See e.g. the section at the end of this page on Bidding After Partner’s 2NT Lebensohl Relay.

[mw64ahw]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-April-17, 04:35, said:

2NT is Lebensohl, which the partner has no choice but to bid 3♣.

Should I have just overcalled even holding 21 total points?

I would bid 3♠/4♣ after 2N

[johnu]

smerriman, on 2025-April-16, 20:19, said:

Obviously agreed in general, but how would you handle this better with a human partner? Surely the passable 3♣ denies the strong off-shape hand, robot or not.

Well, with a human partner, I might make an offshape takeout double, but I'm still aware that partner may legitimately bury me in my short offshape suit. As far as a passable 3♣ bid denying a strong offshape hand, I disagree, but I guess it depends on what you consider a strong hand.

With the actual hand after a takeout double, you have good enough heart support that you don't have to be worried if partner bids hearts. A diamond response could be a problem and hopefully bidding clubs won't get you too high, and partner should make some allowance that you don't have perfect shape for a takeout double.

With the current hand, you likely have 8 running tricks, a diamond stopper, and if partner has a spade stopper, a good chance for 9 tricks in NT.

Change the hand a little bit,

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and my first thought is that I would just overcall 3♣. Still 19 HCP, but now 9 tricks (or 11 tricks) doesn't look so easy.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2025-April-17, 05:14, said:

Uh, no, that is not how lebensohl works over weak 2s at all. See e.g. the section at the end of this page on Bidding After Partner’s 2NT Lebensohl Relay.

Yet the explanation provided to opponents (and illegally to partner) says that 2NT forces 3♣.

[smerriman]

johnu, on 2025-April-17, 14:57, said:

With the current hand, you likely have 8 running tricks, a diamond stopper, and if partner has a spade stopper, a good chance for 9 tricks in NT.

Exactly.. so I'm definitely not wanting to play 3♣ if partner passes, nor 3♦ or 3♥ if partner bids those either. I'd just bid 3♠ over 2NT.. if you're going to bid over a red suit response anyway, why take the (small, but unnecessary) risk of playing in 3♣ to begin with?

pescetom, on 2025-April-17, 15:04, said:

Yet the explanation provided to opponents (and illegally to partner) says that 2NT forces 3♣.

If you're learning how a convention works through how GIB describes it, you're not going far.

[hrothgar]

pescetom, on 2025-April-17, 15:04, said:

Yet the explanation provided to opponents (and illegally to partner) says that 2NT forces 3♣.

We are trying to discuss bridge, not the various travesties that the bot's perpetrate