[Knurdler]

Most of my bridge club (I am in South Africa) plays the multi 2 diamond convention 5 ways: long weak major, strong minor or 20 point NT.
Without debating the merits of the multi 2, I have 3 questions on continuations.

1. What sort of suit and strength does a 3H or 3S response to 2D require?

2. After 2D 2NT – responder is showing opening hand. What does opener rebid with 20 points? Opener knows there is 33+ between the 2 hands. 3C, 3D, 3H, 3S, 4C 4D are all allocated specific meanings. Maybe 3NT? – is that shut out? Maybe 4NT? – is it blackwood or quantitative and should we be in a suit?
This came up last week, so will likely never see it again. We blundered into 7NT, making.

3. After 2D (X) – I currently play 2H 2S 2NT retain their normal meaning. I now have 2 other bids (pass and XX). What should each one mean?
More than 1 site suggests P = happy to play 2D doubled. This sounds fairly rare and does not impede 3rd hand at all.
Some say XX = willing to compete to third level. I do not know what this means – how strong is responder? What suit/s is responder happy with? What assumption is responder making about opener’s hand?

Tks

[mw64ahw]

This is where I was a couple of years ago, but have since tweaked my multi as follows

• Strong balanced is now 24-27, with 20-21 played as reverse 'birthright'
• 2♦-2M-3♣ to 3N are now primary ♦

This has a few advantages, namely a) the probability of the strong hand decreases thus reducing your issues above, b) more flexibility with 20-21 in that direct transfers are forcing, but you can still play in 2♥/3♠, c) You can play in 3♦ with a bust hand.

Now coming to your questions

• Suit wise for 3♥ I tend to want Hx or xxx with 3♠ having longer ♥ than ♠. Strength is a tricky one to judge as it is a factor of hcp, distribution and vulnerability; you want to preempt you opponents out of game, but not end up at the 3-level going down when the opponents aren't making. Judgement is gained with experience, but I tend to preempt more with weaker hands.
• You can shift your bids up a level for the strong hands and play your normal approach, but if you make the tweaks above then 6/7N is almost guaranteed.
• Looks Ok, but XX could be penalty.

[paulg]

Knurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

Most of my bridge club (I am in South Africa) plays the multi 2 diamond convention 5 ways: long weak major, strong minor or 20 point NT.
Without debating the merits of the multi 2, I have 3 questions on continuations.

The continuations are very much constrained by the options you put into the Multi 2♦, so I won't debate your choices but it limits my response.

Knurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

3. After 2D (X) – I currently play 2H 2S 2NT retain their normal meaning. I now have 2 other bids (pass and XX). What should each one mean?
More than 1 site suggests P = happy to play 2D doubled. This sounds fairly rare and does not impede 3rd hand at all.
Some say XX = willing to compete to third level. I do not know what this means – how strong is responder? What suit/s is responder happy with? What assumption is responder making about opener's hand?

Tks

When someone doubles your Multi, it is highly unlikely that you will have a strong hand and continuations should be based on partner holding a long weak major.

I play Kit Woolsey's method for passing 2♦: namely passing asks partner to pass if they hold three or more diamonds. Such a specific method removes the ethical problems of hesitations or fast passes and tells the opponents exactly what is likely to occur.

I play redouble as showing my own long suit, so opener is expected to puppet to 2♥ and then I will show my suit, perhaps by passing.

[Tramticket]

Strange topic for the Novice and Beginner Forum!

Knurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

1. What sort of suit and strength does a 3H or 3S response to 2D require?

For us, 3H suggests three hearts and at least thhree spades. 3S suggests three spades and at least four hearts.

Knurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

2. After 2D 2NT – responder is showing opening hand. What does opener rebid with 20 points? Opener knows there is 33+ between the 2 hands. 3C, 3D, 3H, 3S, 4C 4D are all allocated specific meanings.

I don't like the methods, but if you are going to include strong minors in the multi, you need to be able to show them. 4C/4D is the traditional response. 3NT should show the balanced hand.

Knurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

3. After 2D (X) – I currently play 2H 2S 2NT retain their normal meaning. I now have 2 other bids (pass and XX). What should each one mean?

We use pass as no tolerance for the majors and length in diamonds. We use redouble as no tolerance in the majors and length in clubs.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 The first question to answer, how often can a 5 carder be part of the multi,
and what suit quality you will have.
If never, you should at least sometimes make a pass / correct bid with 2+/3+.

Playing the Multi you loose the option to make a simple blocking raise.
You can regain some ground, if you are allowed to make a blocking raise with Hx,
and if your 3 carder was the suit, you are even LoTT conform.

#2 3NT should show the 20+ bal. hand, and is obv. forcing, at least to 4NT, (or 5NT)
and you can play you normal system after a 2NT opening.

#3 Pass is to play, XX should force 2H, allowing the Multi partner to bid his own suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pescetom]

Tramticket, on 2024-October-08, 09:20, said:

Strange topic for the Novice and Beginner Forum!

Shouldn't it be automatic for a moderator to move the thread?

[jillybean]

Tramticket, on 2024-October-08, 09:20, said:

Strange topic for the Novice and Beginner Forum!

I think you only find it a strange topic because Multi is forbidden in North America.
Oh, you are from the UK. nvm

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2024-October-08, 12:28, said:

Shouldn't it be automatic for a moderator to move the thread?

Please move it to the changing laws and regulations thread.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-October-08, 14:37, said:

I think you only find it a strange topic because Multi is forbidden in North America.
Oh, you are from the UK. nvm

Multi is allowed at any level in Italy, too (a club could ban it but they never do), but I still find it a strange topic for N/B. I try to protect our Novices from learning conventions, although they usually come to me with Stayman and Jacoby transfers and even Ace asking already instilled. Nobody here would teach beginners Multi, though.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2024-October-15, 06:35, said:

Multi is allowed at any level in Italy, too (a club could ban it but they never do), but I still find it a strange topic for N/B. I try to protect our Novices from learning conventions, although they usually come to me with Stayman and Jacoby transfers and even Ace asking already instilled. Nobody here would teach beginners Multi, though.

I agree, Multi should not be included in Novice lessons but that is very different from a new player asking about conventions. Tell them! If Multi is regularly played at the club, the sooner players are interested in learning, the better.

[helene_t]

2. If 3nt doesn't show some weak hand then it seems logical to let it show the strong balanced hand.
3. Pass ahows diamonds i.e. asks opener to pass, xx shows an own suit and asks opener to bid 2h even if they have spades

[DavidKok]

When I most recently played a multi 2♦ it was weak-only. We had the following response scheme:

Spoiler

• Pass: Suggestion to play, can be as short as three diamonds.
  
• 2♥: 4-way bid, asking opener to pass with hearts or correct with spades.
  
• 2♠: 3-way bid, asking opener to pass with spades and bid 2NT (minimum) or 3♣ (maximum) with hearts.
  
• 2NT: Invitational+ asking bid. Opener shows their suit, min/max and their suit quality.
  
• 3♣: Invitational+ with 5(+)♥.
  
• 3♦: Invitational+ with 5(+)♠.
  
• 3♥: Pass or correct, weak, at least 3-3 in the majors.
  
• 3♠: Pass or correct, weak, at least 3=4 in the majors.
  
• 3NT: To play, wide ranging.
  
• 4♣: 'Transfer me into your suit', wide ranging, may be strong.
  
• 4♦: 'Bid your suit', wide ranging, may be strong.
  
• 4♥: Pass or correct, wide ranging, may be strong.
  
• 4♠: To play.

Furthermore we had the following rules about competitive auctions:

Spoiler

• 3♥ and up, if still available, retain their meaning.
  
• If they overcall 2M then double is 'stolen bid' with system on continuations. 2NT retains its meaning.
  
• If they overcall a new suit is now natural and forcing (including 2♦-(2♥)-2♠ and also 2♦-(3♣)-3♦). This does not take priority over rule 1.
  
• If second hand overcalls 2NT or higher, double is penalties.
  
• If fourth hand interferes we play double = stolen bid, pass = 'they went past my response', bidding = system on.
  
• If second hand doubles we play XX = transfer to 2♥, I will place the contract. Bidding = system on. Pass = pass with 3(+)♦, bid your suit otherwise.
  
• If it goes 2♦-(P)-P-(X); ? it is mandatory for opener to pass.

This is a lot, but it helped us a bunch to have clear rules and expectations. The auction almost always started 2♦-(P)-2M or 2♦-(2M) so that's where you should focus your time and energy. Four closing remarks:

• I have before seen people play 2♦-(X)-P*-(P); ? with the same definition as above for the pass, but now utilising redouble to show spades and 2♥ to show hearts. The idea is that responder with a long diamond hand may choose 2♦XX over 2♠. I don't know how to feel about this.
  
• Our multi (properly: Wagner) was weak-only. Without this most of the preemptive jumps can practically be removed from the system both in and out of competition, and also the liberal pass, 4-way 2♥ and 3-way 2♠ won't work as well. The problem is that if partner opens a 2♦ multi containing strong options and we have a weak hand with support for both majors, the chance that partner is strong is somewhat high, and the costs of preempting partner if they have that hand can be really large. So you have to seriously gut the system to cater to a hand type that is normally infrequent and also can be easily bid in other ways. This is why I personally much prefer taking the strong hands out of the 2♦ opening.
  
• We very frequently opened 2♦ on a five card suit, including a lot of hands that would fail to qualify for a preempt by the standards of most players. We found that the less disciplined we were, the more it won. This might be something to take into consideration.
  
• Lastly, my apologies for the long and much too detailed text in the novice and beginner forum.