[phoenixmj]

---

We encountered this hand yesterday in a f2f game. Let me explain the beginning part of the auction. I opened the bidding 1C. My partner then bid 1S. Our system is that if the opener does not have shortness and has 12-14 hcp, (defined as a singleton or void) then we bid 1N, even with a semi balanced hand. Not sure if this hand is too unbalanced for that treatment, but the alternative would be 2C which is not any better. This way partner knows that you have at least 2 of their suit.

My partner then bid 2D, which is xyz and an artificial game force. I obviously still know nothing about diamonds at this point. I bid 3C indicating real clubs and likely 5 decent clubs. My partner then bid 3D, which I took as natural.

Knowing that the lead would be coming to me, and still not knowing about support in clubs, but now knowing that diamonds were covered, I bid 3N.

Now the questions we had -- Partner bid 4C, which I took to be some support in clubs, a run from NT due to a distributional type hand (he in fact did have 1 singleton) - and I felt that we were strong enough so I bid 5C. My partner having such a strong hand, and likely influenced by his singleton AH, bid 6 clubs.

We got a mediocre result because 7N makes, as does 7C. In fact, we made 7C.

My partner was "hoping" that I would respond to his 4C bid using Q-Gerber. I told him I thought that was not on even though the last bid was NT because I had bid clubs 2 times during the auction. Even if it were, I would have responded 4D indicating little interest in slam. At that point, he would have bid 4H saying tell me anyway, and my response then would have been 4S (we play 1430 Q gerber). Not sure that this would have changed the bid to NT vs clubs anyway - again given his singleton heart.

Given the bidding sequence to get to the 3N bid, is there any way for partner to ask about key cards, or given that partner has all but one anyway, is it better to just go to 6 and hope that is good enough.

Curious as to how the bidding should have gone so that we at least get to 6N instead of clubs, and of course it would be great to get to 7C or 7N.

Thanks in advance.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

my take is, that 4C is setting clubs in a forcing manner, you dont run from 3NT,
and I would also assume, that 3NT denies 4 diamonds.

The slam bidding investigating 7C (and 7NT) should start from there, the NT bidder
should not kill space by bidding 5C, he described his hand, he is either 5332 or
6322 according to your system.

If you reach 7 is a different matter, but the issue is the interpretation of 4C as
kind of rescue / bid improve the contract bid, and the subsequent jump to 5C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[phoenixmj]

P_Marlowe, on 2023-May-02, 10:00, said:

Hi,

my take is, that 4C is setting clubs in a forcing manner, you dont run from 3NT,
and I would also assume, that 3NT denies 4 diamonds.

The slam bidding investigating 7C (and 7NT) should start from there, the NT bidder
should not kill space by bidding 5C, he described his hand, he is either 5332 or
6322 according to your system.

If you reach 7 is a different matter, but the issue is the interpretation of 4C as
kind of rescue / bid improve the contract bid, and the subsequent jump to 5C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Hi -- if I don't bid 5C what would I bid? From my perspective, I am not thinking slam even if partner has an opening game force hand. Also, I have no 1st round controls until I get to 5C.

Thanks in advance.

[mikeh]

I have a partner who likes to open a weak 1N (when playing that style, which we currently don’t) with a six card minor and a 6322 hand. I’ve long hated it, especially at imps. I can understand it at mps, but at imps one wants to reach the best partial/game/slam rather than the highest scoring one.

So, for me, a 2C rebid is automatic. That creates a different issue than the one you faced, in that xyz no longer applies. However, 2D is still an artificial noise over 2C, and converts a subsequent 3C into a game force. So 1C 1S 2C 2D leads to either 2S or 2N by north, over which 3C sets trump and creates a gf (even a 3C rebid leads to 4C, forcing). Note that even if responder felt that 2S should show three, he still should support clubs. He knows that it’s a virtual certainty that opener can pitch spades on diamonds…so even xxx in spades is not a problem….in clubs! It’s an enormous problem playing in spades.

Given your start…


1C 1S 1N 2D 3C.

This is problematic because responder lacks a key bit of information….that sixth club is not merely an extra winner…it also greatly reduces the chances of a club loser. If your fit is AQxxx opposite Kxx, then you’ll lose a trump trick about 31% of the time…unacceptable odds for grand. AQxxxx opposite Kxx offers a more than 90% play for no losers (I’m ignoring the 10, which makes both fits better, because responder can’t find out about the 10 and he’s the one likely having to make the final decision).

However, south’s hand is so good that he might be able to get to grand anyway, hoping for the unfindable AQJxx rather than AQxxx and, of course, knowing you might hold 6 because of your self-imposed need to distort shape.

As P_M notes, 4C is NOT running from 3N….it’s running towards a slam.

You posted that you had no first round control. But it’s an error to think that cuebids show aces or voids (the latter ruled out by 1N, plus one should rarely, if ever, make one’s first cuebid based on shortness). It’s been standard expert practice for decades to cue up the line, not discriminating between first and second round control below game.

1C 1S 1N 2D 3C

I would have bid 4C now….3D was silly. Are we ever planning on playing in diamonds? No. Do we have a club fit? Yes. Are we looking for at least a small slam? Obviously

Should we let partner know asap? Yes. Partners bid better when we help them and as responder our first task is to tell opener that we’re interested in a club slam or grand.

Opener now has an enormous hand. Having described a balanced hand with five clubs and 12-14 hcp, he has the world’s most slam suitable spade holding….Kx is great when one might have had xx…and an extra trick in the shape of the sixth club.

If forced to make only one bid over 4C, with partner barred, I’d bid 6C. But, of course, I’m not barred, so 4H it is.

Now responder can keycard if he wants.

1C 1S 1N 2D 3C 4C 4H 4N 5C (if 1430) 5D 5S (club queen plus spade King) 7C.

After your auction to 3N, responder’s 4C gets you back to this sequence, although an expert north would wonder why responder made that fatuous 3D bid. However, wondering aside, he still has a great hand, within the context of what he’s shown so far, and the auction should go the same way.

Anyone who reads my posts on a regular basis knows that I often refer to hand evaluation in terms of ‘context’. Many non-experts tend to ignore this aspect of bidding.

It’s common to have limited one’s hand, especially as opener early in the auction. A 1N rebid or a simple raise of responder’s suit does that.

If responder then makes aggressive moves following such a limiting of one’s hand, one no longer asks oneself ‘do I have a good hand’. Instead, one asks oneself ‘given the range of hands I could have, consistent with my last bid, do I have a great hand in context, an average hand or a bad hand’.

Having said ‘I’m likely 5332 and have 12-14 hcp’, the opening hand becomes enormous once responder makes a slam move in clubs! So opener needs to bid aggressively thereafter, and 5C is the least aggressive move there is.hence it’s a poor choice.

[P_Marlowe]

phoenixmj, on 2023-May-02, 10:19, said:

Hi -- if I don't bid 5C what would I bid? From my perspective, I am not thinking slam even if partner has an opening game force hand. Also, I have no 1st round controls until I get to 5C.

Thanks in advance.

4C showes slam interest.
You have an opening bid, you have 13HCP and a 6th club, you have 4 controls, 5C showes a dead min,
and you are way better than that.
I dont know, but I believe a 12-14 NT has on av. 3 controls, i.e. 4 controls is pretty good.

If you play first round control que bids, I would suggest, that you switch to mixed cue bids, ..., otherwise
you may need to agree, that 4NT showes a good hand without first round control (*) or you could play 4C as cond. minorwood,
with min. you refuse to answer the KC ask with 4C, with better than min you answer, 4H would be 0 or 3.
As I have written elsewhere, I prefer to play my RKC ask as 4NT only, but I happen to play mixed cue, and our cue bidding
style is a very minority way of doing it, in contrast cond. minorwood is quite common.

(*) in effect this would be some sort of cond. minorwood.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

mikeh, on 2023-May-02, 10:52, said:

1C 1S 1N 2D 3C

I would have bid 4C now….3D was silly. Are we ever planning on playing in diamonds? No. Do we have a club fit? Yes. Are we looking for at least a small slam? Obviously

I did not give too much though to this, I dont play 1C as bal., but my take was, that 3C could still be 5clubs, 4 diamonds and 2-2 in the majors, in which case you still
may have a 4-4 in diamonds, ..., but I also prefer to set the trumps suit as fast as possible to avoid confusion.
I guess 3C rules out 5 diamonds and 4 clubs.

[phoenixmj]

mikeh, on 2023-May-02, 10:52, said:

I have a partner who likes to open a weak 1N (when playing that style, which we currently don’t) with a six card minor and a 6322 hand. I’ve long hated it, especially at imps. I can understand it at mps, but at imps one wants to reach the best partial/game/slam rather than the highest scoring one.

So, for me, a 2C rebid is automatic. That creates a different issue than the one you faced, in that xyz no longer applies. However, 2D is still an artificial noise over 2C, and converts a subsequent 3C into a game force. So 1C 1S 2C 2D leads to either 2S or 2N by north, over which 3C sets trump and creates a gf (even a 3C rebid leads to 4C, forcing). Note that even if responder felt that 2S should show three, he still should support clubs. He knows that it’s a virtual certainty that opener can pitch spades on diamonds…so even xxx in spades is not a problem….in clubs! It’s an enormous problem playing in spades.

Given your start…


1C 1S 1N 2D 3C.

This is problematic because responder lacks a key bit of information….that sixth club is not merely an extra winner…it also greatly reduces the chances of a club loser. If your fit is AQxxx opposite Kxx, then you’ll lose a trump trick about 31% of the time…unacceptable odds for grand. AQxxxx opposite Kxx offers a more than 90% play for no losers (I’m ignoring the 10, which makes both fits better, because responder can’t find out about the 10 and he’s the one likely having to make the final decision).

However, south’s hand is so good that he might be able to get to grand anyway, hoping for the unfindable AQJxx rather than AQxxx and, of course, knowing you might hold 6 because of your self-imposed need to distort shape.

As P_M notes, 4C is NOT running from 3N….it’s running towards a slam.

You posted that you had no first round control. But it’s an error to think that cuebids show aces or voids (the latter ruled out by 1N, plus one should rarely, if ever, make one’s first cuebid based on shortness). It’s been standard expert practice for decades to cue up the line, not discriminating between first and second round control below game.

1C 1S 1N 2D 3C

I would have bid 4C now….3D was silly. Are we ever planning on playing in diamonds? No. Do we have a club fit? Yes. Are we looking for at least a small slam? Obviously

Should we let partner know asap? Yes. Partners bid better when we help them and as responder our first task is to tell opener that we’re interested in a club slam or grand.

Opener now has an enormous hand. Having described a balanced hand with five clubs and 12-14 hcp, he has the world’s most slam suitable spade holding….Kx is great when one might have had xx…and an extra trick in the shape of the sixth club.

If forced to make only one bid over 4C, with partner barred, I’d bid 6C. But, of course, I’m not barred, so 4H it is.

Now responder can keycard if he wants.

1C 1S 1N 2D 3C 4C 4H 4N 5C (if 1430) 5D 5S (club queen plus spade King) 7C.

After your auction to 3N, responder’s 4C gets you back to this sequence, although an expert north would wonder why responder made that fatuous 3D bid. However, wondering aside, he still has a great hand, within the context of what he’s shown so far, and the auction should go the same way.

Anyone who reads my posts on a regular basis knows that I often refer to hand evaluation in terms of ‘context’. Many non-experts tend to ignore this aspect of bidding.

It’s common to have limited one’s hand, especially as opener early in the auction. A 1N rebid or a simple raise of responder’s suit does that.

If responder then makes aggressive moves following such a limiting of one’s hand, one no longer asks oneself ‘do I have a good hand’. Instead, one asks oneself ‘given the range of hands I could have, consistent with my last bid, do I have a great hand in context, an average hand or a bad hand’.

Having said ‘I’m likely 5332 and have 12-14 hcp’, the opening hand becomes enormous once responder makes a slam move in clubs! So opener needs to bid aggressively thereafter, and 5C is the least aggressive move there is.hence it’s a poor choice.

Got to love the word fatuous:)

We used to do 1/2 round controls for cue bids and we were advised to switch to 1st round only. Recently we have had hands where 1/2 round controls would be better. I take it you advocate for 1/2 round controls only.

Thanks again.

[mikeh]

phoenixmj, on 2023-May-02, 11:36, said:

Got to love the word fatuous:)

We used to do 1/2 round controls for cue bids and we were advised to switch to 1st round only. Recently we have had hands where 1/2 round controls would be better. I take it you advocate for 1/2 round controls only.

Thanks again.

I don’t know who suggested the change but, imo and that of just about every good player I know, 1/2 cheaply is far superior to first round first

[P_Marlowe]

First round control Que bidding predates KC ask.
The 1/2 control bidding style requires KC ask, and conversly, if you play only 1st round control bids,
you may get rid of KC ask.
A nice agreement is, that the first Que is honor based, i.e. skipping a Que, does not deny control, only
A/K in the skipped suit.
You should also avoid Que bidding shortage in partners known long suit.