[jillybean]

New Zealand Bridge

I played tonight against a pair where one partner is well known for his off-shape bidding.
In second seat he opened 1NT, alerted as "12-14 but can be weaker or stronger, and off shape". I've noticed this bidder's 1NT containing a singleton on occasions.
My partner won the auction in 2♥. On the first heart lead, 1NT opener showed out. I called the Director.

How do you rule?

[axman]

jillybean, on 2023-January-24, 04:33, said:

New Zealand Bridge

I played tonight against a pair where one partner is well known for his off-shape bidding.
In second seat he opened 1NT, alerted as "12-14 but can be weaker or stronger, and off shape". I've noticed this bidder's 1NT containing a singleton on occasions.
My partner won the auction in 2♥. On the first heart lead, 1NT opener showed out. I called the Director.

How do you rule?

about what?

[helene_t]

"off-shape" is maybe a bit vague, it could just include 5422 shapes. But in order to adjust the score, the TD would need to establish that
- the de facto agreement is that 1NT can contain a void
- that it was inadequately disclosed. This is not obvious since your partner could have asked for an elaboration of "off-shape".
- That there was damage

I might record the incident but it doesn't sound like there is basis for an adjustment or PP.

[pescetom]

What do your national regulations have to say about it?
There is no infraction of the laws that I can see.

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2023-January-24, 06:43, said:

"off-shape" is maybe a bit vague, it could just include 5422 shapes. But in order to adjust the score, the TD would need to establish that
- the de facto agreement is that 1NT can contain a void
- that it was inadequately disclosed. This is not obvious since your partner could have asked for an elaboration of "off-shape".
- That there was damage

There is also the possibility that the de facto agreement is illegal under national regulations (it would be here, during a club pairs tournament), but again we need to know them.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2023-January-24, 06:50, said:

There is also the possibility that the de facto agreement is illegal under national regulations (it would be here, during a club pairs tournament), but again we need to know them.

NZ regulations are very liberal. I am pretty sure that any definition of a 1NT opening is allowed.

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2023-January-24, 06:55, said:

NZ regulations are very liberal. I am pretty sure that any definition of a 1NT opening is allowed.

Good for them. We are allowed any definition in a team tournament or high level competition, but at clubs pairs we are limited to any singleton, a 5 card major or 6 card minor, maximum 9 cards in 2 suits. Which is of course precisely my agreement

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2023-January-24, 06:43, said:

"off-shape" is maybe a bit vague, it could just include 5422 shapes. But in order to adjust the score, the TD would need to establish that
- the de facto agreement is that 1NT can contain a void
- that it was inadequately disclosed. This is not obvious since your partner could have asked for an elaboration of "off-shape".
- That there was damage

I might record the incident but it doesn't sound like there is basis for an adjustment or PP.

Also depends on the exact auction. I would have thought if the partner of the 1N opener hasn't made what would be a normal bid opposite, there may be an infraction. There is probably a pattern in HOW his partner is offshape/offrange and there could be an issue of a fielded psyche.

If it was intended that this could be opened 1N, then a better description is needed, if they said VERY offshape, I would not be complaining but I would have asked more questions.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-January-24, 07:40, said:

If it was intended that this could be opened 1N, then a better description is needed, if they said VERY offshape, I would not be complaining but I would have asked more questions.

I'm not that sympathetic to a complaint about this as an alert explanation, even if their agreement allows a void. "Offshape" has the merits of being short and clear, one can always ask for the details. We explain our agreement with all the bells and whistles ("14-17, can contain a 5cM, 6cM, 9 cards in any 2 suits, any singleton") but not all opponents are grateful for that (a typical comment is "in other words almost anything!") and I suspect many would prefer "Offshape" if there was such a term in Italian.

I would however expect them to have a full description of such an agreement on a system card or notes, but again we are getting into regulations rather than laws.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2023-January-24, 09:45, said:

I'm not that sympathetic to a complaint about this as an alert explanation, even if their agreement allows a void. "Offshape" has the merits of being short and clear, one can always ask for the details. We explain our agreement with all the bells and whistles ("14-17, can contain a 5cM, 6cM, 9 cards in any 2 suits, any singleton") but not all opponents are grateful for that (a typical comment is "in other words almost anything!") and I suspect many would prefer "Offshape" if there was such a term in Italian.

I would however expect them to have a full description of such an agreement on a system card or notes, but again we are getting into regulations rather than laws.

Offshape going with 1N to most people would still imply at least vaguely balanced, if an 11 card suit was included or a void, that is not an offshape 1N, that's a different artificial bid.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-January-24, 10:36, said:

Offshape going with 1N to most people would still imply at least vaguely balanced, if an 11 card suit was included or a void, that is not an offshape 1N, that's a different artificial bid.

Dunno, I'm a literal minded guy and to me off shape means not on shape

But what surprises people or not depends a lot upon local regulations and how far and frequently people have seen them pushed. Some at my club are still surprised by 5M332 (although they no longer call the Director), our regulations still forbid a 6M322 but it would be allowed in EBU and probably shock nobody, you or I would probably not blink at 5431 but consider a void beyond the pale.

I don't think there is an easy answer to the disclosure problem except to have a System Card that documents 1NT agreements precisely. Announcements and detailed explanations can become tedious or misleading and have a UI risk too.

[jillybean]

I don't know what the rules say, what I have read on NZ Bridge;

"Openings A 1NT opening bid must have 11+HCP and be balanced."

"For a natural 1NT opening bid: o "12 to 14" (or the appropriate range) Note: A 1NT opening bid that could contain a single (an unbalanced hand) is considered a natural 1NT opening bid if the partnership are prepared to play in 1NT or be transferred to their singleton suit and play there. It is alerted by announcing as above and no further announcement is required."

"Balanced For the purpose of classifying NT opening bids, balanced shall mean a hand with no more than one (1) shortage and that shortage shall be not fewer than two (2) cards in length.
Semi-balanced A hand that may contain shortage in two (2) suits and that shortage shall not be fewer than two (2) cards.
Unbalanced A hand that is not balanced nor semi-balanced."

It appears that my 1nt which often contain two doubletons are also outside the definition of nt openings.

[axman]

jillybean, on 2023-January-24, 04:33, said:

New Zealand Bridge

I played tonight against a pair where one partner is well known for his off-shape bidding.
In second seat he opened 1NT, alerted as "12-14 but can be weaker or stronger, and off shape". I've noticed this bidder's 1NT containing a singleton on occasions.
My partner won the auction ... I called the Director.

How do you rule?

L43A1. (a) Dummy may not initiate a call for the Director during play unless another player has
drawn attention to an irregularity.

25% of top PP to dummy.

[jillybean]

axman, on 2023-January-24, 12:28, said:

L43A1. (a) Dummy may not initiate a call for the Director during play unless another player has
drawn attention to an irregularity.

25% of top PP to dummy.

My partner drew attention to the irregularity when the 1NT bidder showed out on first ♥

The Director must be summoned at once when attention is drawn to an irregularity.

[pilowsky]

jillybean, on 2023-January-24, 04:33, said:

New Zealand Bridge

I played tonight against a pair where one partner is well known for his off-shape bidding.
In second seat he opened 1NT, alerted as "12-14 but can be weaker or stronger, and off shape". I've noticed this bidder's 1NT containing a singleton on occasions.
My partner won the auction in 2♥. On the first heart lead, 1NT opener showed out. I called the Director.

How do you rule?

Is it illegal to open 1NT with a void in NZ? - The NZ Bridge site refers to the WBF (2017) for its rules, not the ACBL.
It's fine in Australia.
When you say "well-known for..." doesn't this mean that you (and possibly opps partner) have a complete understanding of their agreements.
It may be discombobulating but so are multi-2's, Precision and Acol.

Why is an off-shape 1NT any different to a Precision 1♣ in this context (by which I mean you have a reasonable understanding of what the hand may contain).
It's just a bid.

[jillybean]

From what I have read and from the Directors response, it is illegal to open 1NT with a void, however it is very confusing, or perhaps only I find it confusing.

The Director came to the table, shook her head at the 1nt bidder and said to me "It's good that you know the rules" but when asked for a ruling responded "there is nothing I can do".

NZ Bridge teach new players that a 1NT opening is made with a balanced hand - no singleton/void, only one doubleton, no 5 card major. The reality that a 1nt opening can contain a 5 card major, 2 doubletons, a singleton or a void is not addressed.

NZ Bridge define a 1NT opening as must having 11+ and be balanced. Balanced is defined as a hand with no more than one (1) shortage and that shortage shall be not fewer than two (2) cards in length.
The regulations later say its ok to open 1NT with a singleton if the partnership is prepared to be transferred to the singleton and play there.


I really don't care what a pair hold for what they call a 1NT opening as long as there is an alert and full disclosure if asked. If the regulations do say it is illegal to open 1NT with a singleton why is there no action for the Director to take? No, I'm not expecting an adjustment, a top board or a public flogging but are these infractions recorded or is the offender free to violate the regulations again next week?

[pilowsky]

jillybean, on 2023-January-24, 21:57, said:

From what I have read and from the Directors response, it is illegal to open 1NT with a void,

NZ Bridge define a 1NT opening as must having 11+ and be balanced. Balanced is defined as a hand with no more than one (1) shortage and that shortage shall be not fewer than two (2) cards in length.
The regulations later say its ok to open 1NT with a singleton if the partnership is prepared to be transferred to the singleton and play there.

Interesting
Can you provide a reference/link?
The two statements seem contradictory.

[helene_t]

Red systems are defined on page d43 of the manual. Apparently this event does not allow red systems. https://www.nzbridge...s-policies.html

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2023-January-25, 04:32, said:

Red systems are defined on page d43 of the manual. Apparently this event does not allow red systems. https://www.nzbridge...s-policies.html

Whoever crammed all that into a single document and numbered the pages should be shot.

And so much for NZ being liberal

On first reading it looks as if 5B and 8B point tournaments (if that is what Jillybean was playing) do not allow 1NT which is not agreed as balanced, meaning at most one doubleton (although not excluding a 5 card major). Kindergarten bridge, but the TD can throw the book at them unless it is a true psyche.

Considering they also allow Multi and a very weak 5-4 minor 2NT, this seems a confused and arbitrary restriction.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2023-January-25, 07:19, said:

Whoever crammed all that into a single document and numbered the pages should be shot.

And so much for NZ being liberal

On first reading it looks as if 5B and 8B point tournaments (if that is what Jillybean was playing) do not allow 1NT which is not agreed as balanced, meaning at most one doubleton (although not excluding a 5 card major). Kindergarten bridge, but the TD can throw the book at them unless it is a true psyche.

Considering they also allow Multi and a very weak 5-4 minor 2NT, this seems a confused and arbitrary restriction.

I think most events allow red systems but maybe it has changed since I left. I have run into some fairly crazy systems in NZ but of course it doesn't necessarily mean that those systems were allowed.

At my local club we had some completely bonkers local regs for no fear bridge (including no penalty doubles allowed!) but on other evenings the TDs said that everything except for strong pass systems was allowed. I am not sure if that reg set has a name in the manual.