[ee57]

I hold ♠A752 ♥J ♦AQ95 ♣9652.
Should I open this hand, playing 2/1 GF?
Thanks.

[akwoo]

I open 1st seat nonvul against good opponents in a good field, and 3rd and 4th seats always.

[helene_t]

Probably never, although in 3rd and 4th seat it is close.

[DavidKok]

Always, but I understand if partner prefers to agree to not open this. I think opening this hand is good though.

[steve2005]

not opening 4441 hand this bad in 1st or 2nd

[mikeh]

It’s a question of partnership style.There’s no clearly correct answer.

If your partnership,opens these, then open.,if not, then pass.

[AL78]

I wouldn't myself but I'm sure one or two of my partners would.

[eagles123]

Mike is right that this is totally a partnership style issue, but if you're a novice/beginner level I would definitely recommend passing with this sort of hand, at least for now.

[helene_t]

DavidKok, on 2022-April-16, 13:31, said:

I think opening this hand is good though.

Yes, it would be nice to play a system (like Precision for example) in which opening this hand doesn't cause too much trouble.

I wouldn't open it playing SA or similar. Partner tends to GF on misfitting 12 counts, certainly misfitting 13 counts.

[LBengtsson]

mikeh, on 2022-April-16, 15:31, said:

It’s a question of partnership style.There’s no clearly correct answer.

If your partnership,opens these, then open.,if not, then pass.

Agree. Though I would add 4441 hands can be a problem generally, especially if partner replies in your stiff (short suit ♥) I am a optimist and think that I have three suits where 4 card trump support would be useful to partner, and although the hand looks a bad 11 points (and as beginner we are told not to open) we have 2.5 honor tricks in our hand with good controls in two of our 4 card suits. The hand has 7 losing tricks, and that is the maximum (as far as I know) accepted for a opening bid at the one level, so on that count I would open...but as mikeh says it does depend on your partner and what agreements you have made.

[DavidKok]

helene_t, on 2022-April-16, 16:28, said:

Yes, it would be nice to play a system (like Precision for example) in which opening this hand doesn't cause too much trouble.

I wouldn't open it playing SA or similar. Partner tends to GF on misfitting 12 counts, certainly misfitting 13 counts.

I'd open this playing 2/1. I think the gap between what is a Precision (or the likes) opening and what is a standard opening is much smaller than it may seem. There are definite downsides to opening a hand like this in standard (or 2/1, or something else), but there are also definite downsides to passing it. On balance I prefer opening.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2022-April-17, 04:00, said:

I'd open this playing 2/1. I think the gap between what is a Precision (or the likes) opening and what is a standard opening is much smaller than it may seem. There are definite downsides to opening a hand like this in standard (or 2/1, or something else), but there are also definite downsides to passing it. On balance I prefer opening.

This is essentially a 4441 10 count, I probably open it 1♦ playing what I play, not sure whether I open it playing 2/1, probably don't open it with the minors reversed (so I'm opening the bad suit).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

never.

As stated, this is a 10 count, a 10 count can contain 2 Aces.
The good thing is, you have a rebid, what ever partner does, you know, what to do next,
even a 1NT response does not kill you, if you started with 1D.
In the end this is something to make up your mind before you get dealt this hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Douglas43]

If in doubt, it's worth looking at your spades and thinking about your rebid. If you have four spades, then you usually have a rebid available. The red suit shortages 4-1-4-4 and 4-4-1-4 are easier to handle than black suit shortages 1-4-4-4, or 4-4-4-1. I'd open this, but pass if the singleton was in a spades. I would think carefully about vulnerability and form of scoring before opening with the singleton in clubs where a 2♣ response is not game forcing, but that is less of a problem in 2/1.

[nige1]

ee57'
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In favour of opening 1♦
Suggests a ♦ lead.
4 ♠
2.5 quick tricks
4144 is good shape for defence
Bidding is fun.

---

[Tramticket]

nige1, on 2022-April-27, 11:14, said:

In favour of opening 1♦
4144 is good shape for defence

This one is just bizarre. This is the strongest argument in favour of passing.

[sfi]

Tramticket, on 2022-May-04, 15:53, said:

This one is just bizarre. This is the strongest argument in favour of passing.

+1. Years ago I stopped opening 4441 hands light and I can't remember ever regretting making that adjustment. They almost always play worse than expected and often play well on defence. Even on defence they can have major problems - the second trick in your singleton suit can simply trash your hand in a triple squeeze, whether real, pseudo or information.

[thepossum]

Can I ask if the considerations above with 4441 hands are different in a 4-card major system?

Or are the same problems there. What I see with 4441 is the amount of time to find a fit

It needs some kind of conventional opening bid saying tell me which of the other three suits you like

I recall there being one in Precision but that's just strong ones isn't it?

I'm reading about some unusual conventions at the moment. I think my favourite so far is the Fighting Irish 2D but that requires both majors

[Cyberyeti]

thepossum, on 2022-May-04, 22:07, said:

Can I ask if the considerations above with 4441 hands are different in a 4-card major system?

Or are the same problems there. What I see with 4441 is the amount of time to find a fit

It needs some kind of conventional opening bid saying tell me which of the other three suits you like

I recall there being one in Precision but that's just strong ones isn't it?

I'm reading about some unusual conventions at the moment. I think my favourite so far is the Fighting Irish 2D but that requires both majors

Precision has the 2♦ opener. 11-15ish 4414/4405 originally, but then 3415/4315 were added.

Strong 4441s were one thing that could be included in a multi 2♦, we did that when we played it.

Roman 2♦ was strong 4441/5440 with mini roman being less strong.

We make no concessions to 4441s other than playing 1x-1y-3N as a 4441 with support rather than the usual long suit.

[nige1]

Tramticket, on 2022-May-04, 15:53, said:

This one is just bizarre. This is the strongest argument in favour of passing.

IMO, it's safer to open if you're less worried about helping opponents reach a good contract.