[AL78]

♠KQ
♥753
♦T92
♣KQJ93

MPs, game all.

---

I decided this wasn't quite worth an opening bid, and it came round to me again working out what to do opposite this overcall. What would you do here?

[bluenikki]

AL78, on 2022-April-08, 05:36, said:

♠KQ
♥753
♦T92
♣KQJ93

MPs, game all.

---

I decided this wasn't quite worth an opening bid, and it came round to me again working out what to do opposite this overcall. What would you do here?

As I learned it long ago, the immediate overcall of a preempt assumes 8 working points opposite. You have a full king in reserve. Passing is out. Double?

[Douglas43]

Close my eyes and bid 3♠?

[apollo1201]

Time for an unassuming DSIP X😝

[DavidKok]

I play X as a game try in spades here. Ouch. I think I'll bid 4♣, and if partner bids anything other than 5♣ I'll bid 4♠. Maybe a direct 3♠ is better, I have no idea. On the bidding partner likely has a singleton heart, so I don't have high hopes for 3NT.

[mikeh]

Style matters. Given my spade holding I expect partner to hold 6 spades far more often than not. Even if he has only 5, they rate very strongly to be AJxxx. We’d all raise with the same hand and Kxx in spades so for me this is an easy 4S bid. I’m not putting partner under pressure by bidding only 3S even at mps. AJxxx x Kxxx Axx, would he/should he take the push when I’d bid 3S on Qxx xxx QJx Kxxx?

If partner is a hyper aggressive overcaller, I may be regretting this but I can’t stomach putting this down as dummy in 3S.

Double is out. If partner bids 4D, I’m committed to 4S. If he bids 4C, how can I pass? If he bids 3S, again…how can I pass? AJxxxx x Kxx Axx, do I really think he’s bidding 4S after a responsive double?

[Stephen Tu]

I agree with Mike, I really don't understand the point of anything but 4S. I think there are quite a few more hands that make 4S rather than 5c than the other way around.

[AL78]

I discounted double as partner might have taken it as penalties, and I didn't want to defend 3♥X, and it is embarrasing to write -730 on your scorecard. I therefore opted for 4♠. The full deal:

---

-300 for a bottom, although it can be played for two down (partner ruffed small on the third round of hearts allowing the spade seven to score a trick).

I may be out of touch with modern bidding style, but I expected a better hand than this for a vulnerable two level overcall missing two top honors in the suit, which IMO should be constructive over a pre-empt. My partner seemed to think differently, claiming "it's just an overcall".

I would like to know if my thinking/logic on these kind of hands is reasonable, because it appears this partner and I have different ideas on bidding, and I am starting to wonder if it is me that is too conservative, maybe even old-fashioned. I do enjoy her company at the table but we do seem to come a cropper every so often like this in the bidding, and it is one contribution to the sub 50% scores I keep getting.

[mikeh]

Your partner, as is so often when you post problems, is hopeless.

You’re never going to improve until you start playing with better players. All the advice you get here is worse than worthless since your partners seem all to lack a basic understanding of the game, so bidding ‘properly’ will only lead to even worse results.

You are a passed hand. He or she is vulnerable with an indifferent suit and less than an opening hand.

You’re still there should he or she pass.

Once in a while passing 2H will lead to a bad board, but generally not as often as will bidding. Bad players forget that partner will, if competent, take action. So they look at a hand like this and reason that 2S is better than pass.

So here, clearly bidding 2S, if allowed to play there, is better than defending 2H. But if you can make 2S, the odds are extremely high that partner won’t let you play there. Indeed, the auction virtually screams that partner has a near opener!

Edit: I’m probably being a bit too harsh. I really don’t like 2S, but give her AJxxxx xx AQx xx and I’d overcall and get a bad score most of the time. But that would be because I’d buy a poor mesh in dummy. The problem with bidding 2S on the actual hand is that it’s unlikely that I could get a good mesh…th3 less one has, the more likely it is that partner’s values won’t fit.

[bluenikki]

mikeh, on 2022-April-08, 13:21, said:

I’d bid 3S on Qxx xxx QJx Kxxx?

Won't partner need that much from you to make 2?

[mikeh]

bluenikki, on 2022-April-08, 16:57, said:

Won't partner need that much from you to make 2?

Well, my partners don’t bid 2S on the actual hand. I’d expect 3S to (a) have a play and (b) be better, most of the time, than selling out to 3H

I’ve had partners bid 2S on AKxxxx x Kxx Axx opposite which game (which he’ll bid after my raise, even tho made in competition) is excellent

If your partners overcall on the actual hand, I feel sorry for you.

[bluenikki]

mikeh, on 2022-April-08, 17:13, said:

Well, my partners don’t bid 2S on the actual hand. I’d expect 3S to (a) have a play and (b) be better, most of the time, than selling out to 3H

I’ve had partners bid 2S on AKxxxx x Kxx Axx opposite which game (which he’ll bid after my raise, even tho made in competition) is excellent

If your partners overcall on the actual hand, I feel sorry for you.

I overcall 3♠ with that. What I can make opposite 8.

[mikeh]

bluenikki, on 2022-April-08, 21:16, said:

I overcall 3♠ with that. What I can make opposite 8.

You play a different game than do I.

[AL78]

bluenikki, on 2022-April-08, 21:16, said:

I overcall 3♠ with that. What I can make opposite 8.

A jump overcall over a pre-empt to me shows a hand that is solidly good enough for an opening bid followed by a jump rebid if no raise, so about seven playing tricks. That hand doesn't qualify.

[bluenikki]

AL78, on 2022-April-09, 05:13, said:

A jump overcall over a pre-empt to me shows a hand that is solidly good enough for an opening bid followed by a jump rebid if no raise, so about seven playing tricks. That hand doesn't qualify.

*Why* do you pose such a high standard? What do you gain?

You and I routinely bid 2♠ over 2♥ with hands that will go plus only if partner has more than a minimum response to a 1-bid. Kaplan summarized it as what you expect to make opposite 8. A responder to the uncontested 1X - 1Y ; 3X. will go to game with 8 . It follows that a hand that would have bid 1♠ - 1N ; 3♠ must not make a nonforcing bid over a 2♥ opening.

[AL78]

bluenikki, on 2022-April-09, 06:26, said:

*Why* do you pose such a high standard? What do you gain?

You and I routinely bid 2♠ over 2♥ with hands that will go plus only if partner has more than a minimum response to a 1-bid. Kaplan summarized it as what you expect to make opposite 8. A responder to the uncontested 1X - 1Y ; 3X. will go to game with 8 . It follows that a hand that would have bid 1♠ - 1N ; 3♠ must not make a nonforcing bid over a 2♥ opening.

It is a structure of showing different strength hands analogous to a rebid after an opening.

Over a 2-level pre-empt:
Simple overcall -> hand that would open 1X and rebid 2X.
Jump overcall -> hand that would open 1X and rebid 3X.
Game overcall -> Strong hand with a self supporting suit that just needs a few HCP for game, e.g. an strong Acol 8-9PT hand.
X then bid -> A hand that would open 1M and rebid 4M over a 1 other M or Acol 1NT response, or the upper end of a 1M opening followed by 3M rebid.

Seems a logical structure to me and is comparable to the bidding structure you would have in Acol, with the difference being you are starting your constructive bidding higher, so have to utilise the double to make up for lost space.

The thing with jump bidding over a weak two is that it consumes a lot of bidding space on top of the opening consuming a lot of bidding space, and if it is your hand, you need as much bidding space as possible to work out where you are going. Thus I think a natural jump bid should be a hand defined down to a narrow strength range so partner, as often as possible, has a fair idea of what to do with his balanced 7-8 count. Normally in a bidding structure, jumping in a constructive auction shows a narrowly defined hand.

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2022-April-09, 06:26, said:

A responder to the uncontested 1X - 1Y ; 3X. will go to game with 8 . It follows that a hand that would have bid 1♠ - 1N ; 3♠ must not make a nonforcing bid over a 2♥ opening.

This seems ludicrous. Sure, partner might have an 8 count on average, but they might also have a 0 count. Why would you want to force to game when you have a 17 count opposite potentially nothing, when you wouldn't have even done so if partner had a response?

Why not ask your partner for their opinion, rather than masterminding the final contract in one go?

Edit - sorry, missed that LHO was a passed hand, so 0 isn't possible. But still, your partner could still be weak, and is allowed to bid too.

[AL78]

smerriman, on 2022-April-09, 13:46, said:

This seems ludicrous. Sure, partner might have an 8 count on average, but they might also have a 0 count. Why would you want to force to game when you have a 17 count opposite potentially nothing, when you wouldn't have even done so if partner had a response?

Why not ask your partner for their opinion, rather than masterminding the final contract in one go?

Edit - sorry, missed that LHO was a passed hand, so 0 isn't possible. But still, your partner could still be weak, and is allowed to bid too.

I think bluenikki's idea is along the lines of what is suggested here:

https://www.bridgewe...WEAK%20TWOs.htm

Scroll down to Suit Overcalls and responding, where it says play partner for 8-9 HCP and when responding, only take action if you have more than what partner is playing you for. Hence with 16+ HCP, either jump overcall or double followed by bidding your suit.

I've always understood it as expecting partner on average to have half the remaining HCP, so giving opener around 8 HCP, play partner for (40-ME-OPENER)/2, and if ME+PARNER is in the game zone, make a strong bid.

Sometimes this doesn't work. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a 17 count with five hearts, 5431 shape. RHO opened a weak two in spades in which I held a stiff king. I overcalled in hearts, LHO raised her partner to 3S, it came round to me, and I made the foolish decision to double, playing partner for 6-8 HCP and thinking we were being robbed or we might get out at the four level for one down undoubled. Partner passed and they made +1. LHO held a 14 count and partner was bust. If partner had bid we are getting wacked for several multiples of 100. If you are fixed, stay fixed.

[bluenikki]

smerriman, on 2022-April-09, 13:46, said:

This seems ludicrous. Sure, partner might have an 8 count on average, but they might also have a 0 count. Why would you want to force to game when you have a 17 count opposite potentially nothing, when you wouldn't have even done so if partner had a response?

Why not ask your partner for their opinion, rather than masterminding the final contract in one go?

Edit - sorry, missed that LHO was a passed hand, so 0 isn't possible. But still, your partner could still be weak, and is allowed to bid too.

In case it wasn't clear, all this applies only in direct seat over a pre-empt.

Kaplan wrote that if you get a bad result from assuming values with partner that they lacked, they are supposed to apologize for under-holding.

Your last comment was the crux: How can partner know to advance without knowing which of their values are already baked in?

Sure, it would be safer to assume 6 opposite rather than 8. But then you will be forced to pass far far too often.

Carl

[mikeh]

One of the problems of the bluenikki approach is the lack of recognition that not all 8 point hands are the same.

When I am the advancer, my partner having over called 2S after a 2H opening, I look at my hand. Many 6-9 hcp hands are easy passes. Others are raises.

So bidding, as overcaller, to the level you expect to make opposite an 8 count is just silly.

To me, a jump overcall would show a strong hand with a good, long suit.

A simple overcall shows 5+ and roughly opening values.

A jump overcall shows a very good 6+ suit and significant extra values…I have no issue with the notion that it shows a hand that would open 1x and rebid 3x, bearing in mind that one hardly needs 8 points to respond to 1x

A jump to 4S shows an even better, purely one-suited hand.

Double then bidding spades shows a strong hand, equivalent to a 3S overcall, but with more tolerance for the side suits…classically one would be roughly 6133.

As advancer to a 2S overcall, I have several raises available. 3S is the weakest. 3H shows an invitational raise or better (overcaller assumes invitational) 4H a splinter. 4S denies slam interest opposite a max overcall.

Jumps in a new suit are fit showing. New suits deny primary support and are F1