[pilun]

What is

(1N) - 2♣ - (no) - 2♦
(no) - 2♠ ?

where 2♣ = "hearts and a minor"

[Cyberyeti]

Doesn't exist unless you agree it to mean something.

44(50) is one possibility.

[Douglas43]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-17, 04:05, said:

Doesn't exist unless you agree it to mean something.

44(50) is one possibility.

Astro isn't as fashionable as it used to be, but I like it because it allows for hands with 4 in a major and 5 in a minor.
I have discussed this sequence with my partner, and our agreement is that it shows at least three spades and a willingness to play there as advancer is quite likely to have 4 or 5 Spades.
Over 2♣ which shows 9+ cards in Hearts and a minor, 2♦ denies more than two Hearts.
Overcaller has not more than 4 Hearts (else you bid 2♥ over 2♦), and overcaller's minor suit is not Diamonds (with 4 Hearts and 5 Diamonds you would pass 2♦)
So, overcaller has 4 Hearts and 5+ Clubs, but is prepared to play in 2♠ rather than simply bidding 3♣
Hence either 3=4=1=5, or as Cyberyeti says 4=4=0=5. Or maybe 3=4=0=6, but I'd bid 3♣ with that

[Cyberyeti]

Douglas43, on 2021-December-17, 05:46, said:

Astro isn't as fashionable as it used to be, but I like it because it allows for hands with 4 in a major and 5 in a minor.
I have discussed this sequence with my partner, and our agreement is that it shows at least three spades and a willingness to play there as advancer is quite likely to have 4 or 5 Spades.
Over 2♣ which shows 9+ cards in Hearts and a minor, 2♦ denies more than two Hearts.
Overcaller has not more than 4 Hearts (else you bid 2♥ over 2♦), and overcaller's minor suit is not Diamonds (with 4 Hearts and 5 Diamonds you would pass 2♦)
So, overcaller has 4 Hearts and 5+ Clubs, but is prepared to play in 2♠ rather than simply bidding 3♣
Hence either 3=4=1=5, or as Cyberyeti says 4=4=0=5. Or maybe 3=4=0=6, but I'd bid 3♣ with that

Not sure you can be that dogmatic that overcaller doesn't have diamonds, what does he do with a near double and 5 diamonds ? where he would want to raise diamonds to 3+ if partner really had them and is 4450/3451

[Douglas43]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-17, 10:21, said:

Not sure you can be that dogmatic that overcaller doesn't have diamonds, what does he do with a near double and 5 diamonds ? where he would want to raise diamonds to 3+ if partner really had them and is 4450/3451

Thanks Cyberyeti, fair point and a matter of style and agreement. Personally I'd pass over 2♦ with anything except a 5-6 red two-suiter, where I might bid 3♦. In the absence of major suit agreement, I tend to stop. But sorry to sound dogmatic.

[Cyberyeti]

Douglas43, on 2021-December-18, 03:53, said:

Thanks Cyberyeti, fair point and a matter of style and agreement. Personally I'd pass over 2♦ with anything except a 5-6 red two-suiter, where I might bid 3♦. In the absence of major suit agreement, I tend to stop. But sorry to sound dogmatic.

Does make it difficult, we don't tend to like to double 1N with a void in a 3 suiter, so can have quite a good hand for the Astro (we play a different variant), so we need to have a way of bidding on, if this has to be 3♦ that's not so terrible, but 2♠ feels more descriptive.

[Douglas43]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-18, 04:25, said:

Does make it difficult, we don't tend to like to double 1N with a void in a 3 suiter, so can have quite a good hand for the Astro (we play a different variant), so we need to have a way of bidding on, if this has to be 3♦ that's not so terrible, but 2♠ feels more descriptive.

Your Astro bids sound a bit more, er, robust than mine tend to be...

[Cyberyeti]

Douglas43, on 2021-December-18, 08:03, said:

Your Astro bids sound a bit more, er, robust than mine tend to be...

They don't have to be, but what do you do with KQxx, AQxx, (KQxxx/-) ? do you double or astro and which major do you show if you astro ?

[Douglas43]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-18, 08:38, said:

They don't have to be, but what do you do with KQxx, AQxx, (KQxxx/-) ? do you double or astro and which major do you show if you astro ?

Which I would choose between Astro and double depends on both sides' vulnerability and my suit quality for the opening lead (KQxx, Axxx, KQJxx void is a more attractive double).
If I chose Astro I'd prefer 2♣ because the denial (next suit up denying more than two cards in the anchor major) is my 5 card suit, not a 4 card suit.
This might be down to playing more pairs than IMPs, but I tend to settle for a part-score at Astro unless my partner shows good support for my anchor major, or advances with 2NT (12+ hcp and enquiring into second suit).
This is purely personal opinion, I don't hold out as a great authority on Astro, I just like playing it.

[Cyberyeti]

Douglas43, on 2021-December-18, 10:00, said:

Which I would choose between Astro and double depends on both sides' vulnerability and my suit quality for the opening lead (KQxx, Axxx, KQJxx void is a more attractive double).
If I chose Astro I'd prefer 2♣ because the denial (next suit up denying more than two cards in the anchor major) is my 5 card suit, not a 4 card suit.
This might be down to playing more pairs than IMPs, but I tend to settle for a part-score at Astro unless my partner shows good support for my anchor major, or advances with 2NT (12+ hcp and enquiring into second suit).
This is purely personal opinion, I don't hold out as a great authority on Astro, I just like playing it.

Can you criticise partner for bidding 2♦ with Axxxx, Kx, Axx, xxx as you play in 2♦ with 7♠ on ? Extreme example but ...

[Douglas43]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-18, 10:10, said:

Can you criticise partner for bidding 2♦ with Axxxx, Kx, Axx, xxx as you play in 2♦ with 7♠ on ? Extreme example but ...

Nope. I'd laugh, say it's only one board and move on.

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-18, 10:10, said:

Can you criticise partner for bidding 2♦ with Axxxx, Kx, Axx, xxx as you play in 2♦ with 7♠ on ? Extreme example but ...

Yes, I would expect partner to do something other than a non-forcing I-want-to-play-here-if-you-have-diamonds bid with a hand where 3NT is on if I hold a decent Astro hand.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2021-December-18, 13:53, said:

Yes, I would expect partner to do something other than a non-forcing I-want-to-play-here-if-you-have-diamonds bid with a hand where 3NT is on if I hold a decent Astro hand.

Yup, me too, but it was in response to

Quote

This might be down to playing more pairs than IMPs, but I tend to settle for a part-score at Astro unless my partner shows good support for my anchor major, or advances with 2NT (12+ hcp and enquiring into second suit).
This is purely personal opinion, I don't hold out as a great authority on Astro, I just like playing it.

[mikeh]

Douglas43, on 2021-December-17, 05:46, said:

Astro isn't as fashionable as it used to be, but I like it because it allows for hands with 4 in a major and 5 in a minor.

Try multi-Landy (it has several names), in which double shows 4M and a longer minor.

2C both majors

2D one major

2M 5M and side minor

You lose the penalty double so we don’t play it against weak notrump

Btw, I play this in a partnership where, 20+ years ago, we played Astro

[Douglas43]

mikeh, on 2021-December-18, 15:17, said:

Try multi-Landy (it has several names), in which double shows 4M and a longer minor.

2C both majors

2D one major

2M 5M and side minor

You lose the penalty double so we don't play it against weak notrump

Btw, I play this in a partnership where, 20+ years ago, we played Astro

Thanks mikeh. Where I live weak NT is still much more popular than strong, but if more people take up 15-17 I'll probably make that switch. I play that defence with one partner, using double for penalties over weak NT (so we do miss the 4M/5m hands).

I should also add in response to the thread above that Cyberyeti's recommendation makes sense particularly at IMPs, but (apart from Lockdown League) I just play pairs and am very focused on scrapping for part-score, even if it means missing the odd grand slam

[AL78]

mikeh, on 2021-December-18, 15:17, said:

Try multi-Landy (it has several names), in which double shows 4M and a longer minor.

2C both majors

2D one major

2M 5M and side minor

You lose the penalty double so we don’t play it against weak notrump

Btw, I play this in a partnership where, 20+ years ago, we played Astro

I'm playing (trying to) that with a couple of partners, but in the UK weak NT land I play double as penalties. The only issue I find with multi-Landy is there are several continuations where responder wants to force which I struggle to remember on account of the fact that the convention comes up a single digit number of times a year.

[helene_t]

I think it would make sense to bid this with 3415. Just in case partner has 4-5 spades and doesn't like either of my suits.