[profhsg]

Using a 2/1 GF system, what does a reverse by the opener after a 2/1 GF bid mean? E.g. 1H, 2D, 2S, or 1S, 2H, 3C. After consulting different volumes on 2/1 GF systems I seem to have found three very different approaches: (a) the reverse shows no extra values, (b) the reverse shows extra values as in a non 2/1 GF system, or © the reverse shows no extra values at the two level, but does show extra values if made at the three level. Which do you use/prefer and why?

Thanks in advance.

[Gilithin]

profhsg, on 2021-November-06, 21:37, said:

Using a 2/1 GF system, what does a reverse by the opener after a 2/1 GF bid mean? E.g. 1H, 2D, 2S, or 1S, 2H, 3C. After consulting different volumes on 2/1 GF systems I seem to have found three very different approaches: (a) the reverse shows no extra values, (b) the reverse shows extra values as in a non 2/1 GF system, or © the reverse shows no extra values at the two level, but does show extra values if made at the three level. Which do you use/prefer and why?

Thanks in advance.

It is a matter of partnership agreement. The most common method is that a 2 level reverse does not show extras and that you do not bid at the 3 level (ie high hat reverse) with a complete minimum but it would be a lie to say that that was a general standard that you can rely upon regardless of who you are playing with.

[smerriman]

This question comes up quite regularly and you'll get lots of strong opinions both ways.

There'll be more well-thought-out opinions than mine, but my very basic one is:

Reversing to the 3 level like 1♠ - 2♥ - 3♣ shows extras for me, as if it's wide ranging, responder won't know whether to go past 3NT or not.
Reversing into 2M shows some extras for me, as if we don't have extras, we're still going to have room to find out about a 4-4 fit on the next round.

(This is how Bridge World Standard play it).

The exception is 1♦ - 2♣ - 2M which can be made on a minimum as it's quite a different scenario.

[Douglas43]

There is a recent discussion on "Bridgewinners" here: What does this bid show in standard 2/1? and what is optimal? (bridgewinners.com)

Confession time, I'm Paul de Weerd, and posted the irreverent final comment

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

add. values.

The main problem with showing no add. values: You have to start limiting your strength at one point in time.
If you reach the 3 level, and opener may still hold anything between min opening strength and max. opening strength,
you will have lots of problems, if the strength is equally distributed.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[paulg]

The answer to the original question will have an impact on your 2M or 2NT rebid too and perhaps thinking about your preferences for these auctions will influence your choice(s).

For example, what do you want to rebid in the sequence 1♥ - 2♦ holding

♠ Kxxx
♥ AQJxx
♦ Qxx
♣ x

or

♠ Kxxx
♥ AQJxx
♦ x
♣ Qxx

or

♠ Kxxx
♥ AQJxx
♦ xx
♣ Qx

[Winstonm]

profhsg, on 2021-November-06, 21:37, said:

Using a 2/1 GF system, what does a reverse by the opener after a 2/1 GF bid mean? E.g. 1H, 2D, 2S, or 1S, 2H, 3C. After consulting different volumes on 2/1 GF systems I seem to have found three very different approaches: (a) the reverse shows no extra values, (b) the reverse shows extra values as in a non 2/1 GF system, or © the reverse shows no extra values at the two level, but does show extra values if made at the three level. Which do you use/prefer and why?

Thanks in advance.

A reverse isn't a strong bid because it was so ordained by a bridge god - it has to be stronger as it requires a higher level of contract for responder to take a preference back to opener's first suit. If you are forcing a weak hand to bid 3C instead of passing 2C, it takes a stronger hand.

That's a lot of history about reverses just to say this: when playing 2/1 the reason for a reverse to show extra values is eliminated. There is no weak hand. Why not just bid your shape at that point? If you are not playing some form of Flannery and open 1H on KJxx, AJxxx, Kxx, x and partner bids 2C on AQxx, Kx, Qx, Axxxx, why shouldn't you find the spade fit immediately?

[DavidKok]

Winstonm, on 2021-November-07, 13:35, said:

Why not just bid your shape at that point?

This is a recurring topic, but even on 2/1 GF auctions there is value in having a cheap catchall 'garbage' bid, and have higher bids show more defined hands. The idea is to get the highest mileage out of the available bidding space.

To answer the original question, it is entirely partnership style. The bridgewinners website has multiple old posts on the meaning of reverses in a 2/1 context. I recommend reading through those. Personally I play that a reverse at the 2-level does not show extras, but a new suit at the 3-level shows more playing strength (though not always more HCP). I don't have a strong preference between the styles but this is my partnership agreement.

[mw64ahw]

For me
1♥-2♦-2♠ shows 4♠ no extra values in 2/1 or SAYC.
1♠-2♥-3♣ shows extra value (points or distribution) in SAYC, but not in 2/1.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2021-November-06, 22:06, said:

This question comes up quite regularly and you'll get lots of strong opinions both ways.

There'll be more well-thought-out opinions than mine, but my very basic one is:

Reversing to the 3 level like 1♠ - 2♥ - 3♣ shows extras for me, as if it's wide ranging, responder won't know whether to go past 3NT or not.
Reversing into 2M shows some extras for me, as if we don't have extras, we're still going to have room to find out about a 4-4 fit on the next round.

(This is how Bridge World Standard play it).

The exception is 1♦ - 2♣ - 2M which can be made on a minimum as it's quite a different scenario.

As I see it, only a minority reverse to 3 level without showing extras, but a clear majority (I polled it on Bridgewinners a year or so ago) reverse into 2M without showing extras.
Bridge World Standard polled (and had to give in to) the 1♦ 2♣ 2M scenario but curiously failed to poll 1♥ 2m 2♠, IIRC.

[Stephen Tu]

Winstonm, on 2021-November-07, 13:35, said:

There is no weak hand. Why not just bid your shape at that point?

Because high card strength matters for whether slam should/can be safely explored, especially when there are minor fits and you often want to stop in 3nt. If the auction can go 1s-2h-3d, and opener can be some shapely 11 count, responder with some (but not a ton of) extra values and a club stop and a diamond fit often really can't do anything other than bid 3nt, because raising diamonds would end up too high, or perhaps end in a sub-optimal 5d instead of 3nt (esp. at MP even if both make if 3nt makes 4). But if opener also has extras, then he also can't move over 3nt, since responder will often be some min 12 count, and 4nt might be quite uncomfortable if the hands are somewhat misfit and don't mesh well even if there are some 28/29 hcp combined. So neither wants to explore slam (since mins are much more common than extras), so 16-ish vs 16-ish hands often miss a good slam. Luckily these problem hands don't come around so often so perhaps people who play "just show your shape" don't notice it that much (although IMO they don't clearly have any compensating wins from the just bid shape approach). Or they are playing some strong club system where this would be much less of an issue.

Kokish actually suggests the 3 level reverse should be both 5-5 AND extra values, though I have never tried that style.

Currently my own preference is to allow 2 level reverse 1h-2m-2s without extras, because now with tools like frivolous 3nt/serious 3nt we have ways to define strength range for cue-bidding without killing all your bidding space. Before these tools were widely promulgated, I still preferred extras, because otherwise you need a lot of "fast arrival" jumps to game to limit strength, which would blow up the auction if partner had a good hand. The advantage of the 2-level shape showing without extras is it allow opener to fully pattern out after the frequent 2nt by responder, which wouldn't happen with a more frequent 2M-catchall bid. But I still like extras for high reverses (and minor raises also).

1d-2c is an entirely separate class of its own IMO and there are quite a few different coherent approaches.

[Winstonm]

Stephen Tu, on 2021-November-07, 17:35, said:

Because high card strength matters for whether slam should/can be safely explored, especially when there are minor fits and you often want to stop in 3nt. If the auction can go 1s-2h-3d, and opener can be some shapely 11 count, responder with some (but not a ton of) extra values and a club stop and a diamond fit often really can't do anything other than bid 3nt, because raising diamonds would end up too high, or perhaps end in a sub-optimal 5d instead of 3nt (esp. at MP even if both make if 3nt makes 4). But if opener also has extras, then he also can't move over 3nt, since responder will often be some min 12 count, and 4nt might be quite uncomfortable if the hands are somewhat misfit and don't mesh well even if there are some 28/29 hcp combined. So neither wants to explore slam (since mins are much more common than extras), so 16-ish vs 16-ish hands often miss a good slam. Luckily these problem hands don't come around so often so perhaps people who play "just show your shape" don't notice it that much (although IMO they don't clearly have any compensating wins from the just bid shape approach). Or they are playing some strong club system where this would be much less of an issue.

Kokish actually suggests the 3 level reverse should be both 5-5 AND extra values, though I have never tried that style.

Currently my own preference is to allow 2 level reverse 1h-2m-2s without extras, because now with tools like frivolous 3nt/serious 3nt we have ways to define strength range for cue-bidding without killing all your bidding space. Before these tools were widely promulgated, I still preferred extras, because otherwise you need a lot of "fast arrival" jumps to game to limit strength, which would blow up the auction if partner had a good hand. The advantage of the 2-level shape showing without extras is it allow opener to fully pattern out after the frequent 2nt by responder, which wouldn't happen with a more frequent 2M-catchall bid. But I still like extras for high reverses (and minor raises also).

1d-2c is an entirely separate class of its own IMO and there are quite a few different coherent approaches.

Stephen, I hate to get too picky but a true reverse and what is termed a “high reverse” are not the same things.

I am specifically answering the OP, a reverse, which can only occur at the 2 level . If I open 1D and you bid 2C there is more benefit to my 2H bid than a nebulous 2D rebid. That is all I have said. Bids at the 3-level are a different matter. They are not a reverse really.

[Stephen Tu]

Winstonm, on 2021-November-07, 19:16, said:

Stephen, I hate to get too picky but a true reverse and what is termed a "high reverse" are not the same things.

There are "low reverses" and "high reverses" in the bridge literature. I've never ever heard either of them termed as a "true" reverse or "not true". They are both reverses, whether they show extra values is agreement dependent. Sometimes "fake" reverse is used to describe reversing into a fragment suit (the fake term referring to the suit, not the true fact that you reversed) when it seems the most descriptive practical option.

Quote

I am specifically answering the OP, a reverse, which can only occur at the 2 level . If I open 1D and you bid 2C there is more benefit to my 2H bid than a nebulous 2D rebid.

It depends on how you structure all the possible rebids, I don't think you can definitively say that "there is more benefit". If reverse does promise extras you have conveyed some extra information than if not. Remember the goal is to maximize exchange of information *over the entire auction*, not *maximize the number of suits shown in the first two bids*. It's not like responder has to place the final contract on his 2nd bid; there is more bidding and room to unwind! Sometimes you are able to exchange more total information < 3nt by making higher bids more tightly defined, and packing more meanings into more ambiguous lower bids when there is still room to unwind them later. That's like how almost all relay systems operate.

[smerriman]

Winstonm, on 2021-November-07, 19:16, said:

Stephen, I hate to get too picky but a true reverse and what is termed a “high reverse” are not the same things.

I am specifically answering the OP, a reverse, which can only occur at the 2 level.

To be fair, you did quote the OPs whole post which specifically asked about both 2 level and 3 level, so it looked like your response was about both too

Your example hands for the 2 level auction probably isn't a good one:

Winstonm, on 2021-November-07, 13:35, said:

If you are not playing some form of Flannery and open 1H on KJxx, AJxxx, Kxx, x and partner bids 2C on AQxx, Kx, Qx, Axxxx, why shouldn't you find the spade fit immediately?

After 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♠, responder knows you have a 4-4 spade fit but nothing else.
After 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♠, responder knows you have a 4-4 spade fit and that you couldn't bid 2♠ the first time.

So if these were the hands, you'd be in a better position playing the latter version.

It's other hands where the shape showing ones can leave you better off.

[Winstonm]

smerriman, on 2021-November-07, 20:05, said:

To be fair, you did quote the OPs whole post which specifically asked about both 2 level and 3 level, so it looked like your response was about both too

Your example hands for the 2 level auction probably isn't a good one:


After 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♠, responder knows you have a 4-4 spade fit but nothing else.
After 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♠, responder knows you have a 4-4 spade fit and that you couldn't bid 2♠ the first time.

So if these were the hands, you'd be in a better position playing the latter version.

It's other hands where the shape showing ones can leave you better off.

Think about it this way: after 1H-2C both opener and responder are in the dark as to how good each other’s hand is. After next 2S-3S opener knows that responder has better than minimum as he didn’t bid 4S. Is it important who knows more? Also, if the opener rebids hearts and subsequently raises spades you know he is 4-6 in the majors.

I really don’t have a dog in this fight - I have played it both ways . The only thing I know for sure is that 1H-2D-3C is not a reverse. 😉

PS: I didn’t get past the first line of the OP.😕

[blackshoe]

In 1♥-2♦-3♣ is a high reverse.

[smerriman]

Winstonm, on 2021-November-07, 20:45, said:

Is it important who knows more?

Nah, I agree, most of the time it's completely irrelevant which version you play. Sometimes the additional info you get from one works out better than the other, but I guess that's why they're both playable.

Stephen Tu's note about the 2NT rebid does make sense though as a subtle swing towards the shape method.

[Winstonm]

blackshoe, on 2021-November-07, 22:00, said:

In 1♥-2♦-3♣ is a high reverse.

Calling ham and cheese on Rye a bologna sandwich does not make it such. The word reverse is used because we reverse our normal order, i.e., we rebid in the higher ranking suit.

Forgive me for being hard to get along with, but I came from a family of educators who took seriously the meaning of words. 1H-2D-3C is a 3-level bid but it isn't a reverse (unless you are the one who is high).

[Gilithin]

As Winston points out, the term reverse refers specifically to bidding a higher-ranking suit at the 2 level and originates from the idea of bidding the suits in the reverse of their natural order. You can use the term low reverse for that if you want, to match high reverse (or high hat reverse in some older texts) but that does not make reverse an overarching term for both. The relationship here is more like car to cable car or bed to flower bed.

[blackshoe]

You can argue all you like, Winston. I learned the term "high reverse" in England in the early 90s, and to me that's what it is. Now if a bunch of English experts want to tell me there's no such thing as a high reverse, maybe I'll change my mind, but until then, no.