[pescetom]

Strong NT, 5-card major 2/1.
After opening 1♣/♦ and interference of 1♥, our players were taught to play that X by Responder is negative (Sputnik) showing 4=card spades whereas 1♠ is F1 with 5+card spades.

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Opener's rebid over 1♠ is basically natural: 2♠ is a simple raise (3+card), 3♠ is an invitational raise.

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Opener's rebid over X showing 4=card spades is less well defined. What do others feel 1♠, 2♠, 3♠ should promise here?

And what should a 2♥ cue mean in both situations?

I'm just hoping to better define this basic system here, not looking for alternatives at this moment. I realise for instance that there are good reasons for putting 4+ spades through X and playing 1♠ as artificial, but I have a large pool of intermediates playing this stuff and they don't want change, just clarity.

[mycroft]

You probably can find online better - as in "taught" - responses, but mine:

• no better response, could very easily be 3 spades; if so, probably no heart stopper;
  
• simple raise (4 card);
  
• invitational raise

(note that since I play weak NT a lot, when I do, the "simple" raise is "15-17 in support of spades", and 1♠ could be "4 spades, but doesn't upgrade to 15 with only a 4=4 fit").

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2021-June-17, 11:14, said:

You probably can find online better - as in "taught" - responses, but mine:

• no better response, could very easily be 3 spades; if so, probably no heart stopper;
  
• simple raise (4 card);
  
• invitational raise

Thanks, that is one intuitive and logical response scheme, but so is "respond as if she had bid 1♠" (USP RIP).
There aren't that many descriptions of actual responses online, and they vary considerably, including the two schemes above.
Bridgebum suggests:
1♠ = 3+ 11-14
2♠ = 4+ 15-17
3♠ = 4+ 18-19
4♠ = 4+ 20-21.

No apparent consensus on 2♥ cue either.

[johnu]

pescetom, on 2021-June-17, 09:59, said:

---

Opener's rebid over X showing 4=card spades is less well defined. What do others feel 1♠, 2♠, 3♠ should promise here?

And what should a 2♥ cue mean in both situations?

Playing strong NT as OP specifies,

1♠ = 3 spades, minimum, tends not to have positional heart stopper
2♠ = 4 spades, minimum (e.g. 11-14)
3♠ = 4 spades, better than minimum, unbalanced or 18-19 balanced

4♣ = splinter, enough for game opposite responder's minimum
4♥ = splinter

4♦ = 4 spades, long and very strong diamonds

4♠ = 4 spades, semi-balanced or balanced that looks like game opposite responder's minimum

2♥ = Initially asking for heart stopper

[johnu]

pescetom, on 2021-June-17, 12:55, said:

Bridgebum suggests:
1♠ = 3+ 11-14
2♠ = 4+ 15-17
3♠ = 4+ 18-19
4♠ = 4+ 20-21

Balanced 15-17 hands would open 1NT in a strong NT system?
Balanced 20-21+ hands would open 2NT?

[Gilithin]

In the second auction, 1♠ is a weak 3 card raise; 2♠ is a weak 4 card raise; and 3♠ is an invitational 4 card raise. In both auctions the cue shows a big hand that cannot easily be shown, with the most common hand type being a balanced 18-19 without a ♥ stopper.

[pescetom]

johnu, on 2021-June-17, 13:41, said:

Balanced 15-17 hands would open 1NT in a strong NT system?
Balanced 20-21+ hands would open 2NT?

The bridgebum article gives examples with a singleton.
But I agree it does not look ideal.

[pescetom]

johnu, on 2021-June-17, 13:35, said:

2♥ = Initially asking for heart stopper

Are you convinced this is more useful than showing a big hand here?
2♣ already asks for heart stopper, even if ostensibly a suit.

[mikeh]

For intermediates, it’s probably best to play, after 1m (1H) x (P):

1S: 3 card support or a terrible hand with 4, where the decision to open was borderline and the hand hasn’t got any better so far

1N: balanced minimum with at least Qxx or Kx or Jxxx in hearts

2m natural

2S: 4 card fit, not embarrassed to have opened

2H: game force but otherwise ambiguous. Almost always either 4 spades and a good 18+ or a long, strong minor with the same values.does not deny a heart stopper. Responder is supposed to make the cheapest descriptive bid. Since responder has denied 5 spades, he can rebid 2S with a good 4 card suit if nothing else seems appropriate...this idea may seem too challenging for intermediates

3m.....if say opener started with 1D, then 3C is a strong jumpshift. Jump rebids of 3 of the opened minor are good 6+ suit, around 16 hcp, over which responder should be considering N with a stopper and adequate values.

3H is a splinter

More experienced players will, or some of them will, rebid 1N without a stopper, just to show a balanced minimum. This works ok provided that the partnership knows not to blast into 3N without one of them having a stopper😀

[pescetom]

mikeh, on 2021-June-18, 10:10, said:

For intermediates, it’s probably best to play, after 1m (1H) x (P):

1S: 3 card support or a terrible hand with 4, where the decision to open was borderline and the hand hasn’t got any better so far

1N: balanced minimum with at least Qxx or Kx or Jxxx in hearts

2m natural

2S: 4 card fit, not embarrassed to have opened

2H: game force but otherwise ambiguous. Almost always either 4 spades and a good 18+ or a long, strong minor with the same values.does not deny a heart stopper. Responder is supposed to make the cheapest descriptive bid. Since responder has denied 5 spades, he can rebid 2S with a good 4 card suit if nothing else seems appropriate...this idea may seem too challenging for intermediates

3m.....if say opener started with 1D, then 3C is a strong jumpshift. Jump rebids of 3 of the opened minor are good 6+ suit, around 16 hcp, over which responder should be considering N with a stopper and adequate values.

3H is a splinter

More experienced players will, or some of them will, rebid 1N without a stopper, just to show a balanced minimum. This works ok provided that the partnership knows not to blast into 3N without one of them having a stopper😀

Thanks Mike. That's almost exactly as I play it, in particular 1S / 2S / 2H, but I was reluctant to proceed just on that basis.

I have one experienced partner who insists on rebidding 1N without a stopper. It's playable, but I'm not yet convinced it is worth it, at least when it is honestly disclosed.

[nullve]

pescetom, on 2021-June-18, 13:03, said:

I have one experienced partner who insists on rebidding 1N without a stopper. It's playable, but I'm not yet convinced it is worth it, at least when it is honestly disclosed.

Anyone here who thinks the alternative,

1♣-(1♥)-X-(P); 2♦ = NAT, could be 2344 without a heart stopper,

is playable?

I'll start a thread about what 'playable' means right now.

[pescetom]

nullve, on 2021-June-18, 13:08, said:

Anyone here who thinks the alternative,

1♣-(1♥)-X-(P); 2♦ = NAT, could be 2344 without a heart stopper,

is playable?

We would open that shape 1◇, but I agree that there are some occasions when 1nt without a stopper will be the least of evils here. I was thinking about it more in general (including a 1nt overcall of opponent's one level opening, where this particular partner prefers not to promise a stopper, which is probably more playable if not explained).

[nullve]

pescetom, on 2021-June-19, 03:37, said:

We would open that shape 1◇

Ok, how about

1♣-(1♥)-X-(P); 2♣ = 11-15, 2-S5+C, could be 2335 without a heart stopper,

then?

Do we want to tell beginners that they should rather risk playing in a 5-1 or 5-0 minor fit than playing in 1N with a potentially wide open suit?

[DavidKok]

nullve, on 2021-June-19, 04:50, said:

Ok, how about

1♣-(1♥)-X-(P); 2♣ = 11-15, 2-S5+C, could be 2335 without a heart stopper,

then?

Do we want to tell beginners that they should rather risk playing in a 5-1 or 5-0 minor fit than playing in 1N with a potentially wide open suit?

Presumably partner would correct to your diamond fit with a void in clubs, and may even take some action with 4=4=4=1.
I think the form of scoring is also relevant. I'll brave 1NT with wide open suits at matchpoints, but at IMPs the bid is more of a stepping stone to 3NT. So if you decide that 1NT without a stopper is fine you need solid followup agreements, for example 2♥ asking ('system on' and even checkback are, in my experience, not sufficient in this scenario).

[johnu]

pescetom, on 2021-June-18, 09:29, said:

Are you convinced this is more useful than showing a big hand here?
2♣ already asks for heart stopper, even if ostensibly a suit.

I didn't mention 2♥ was a big hand but I didn't think I needed to. Why would you force the bidding that high without a very good hand.

As far as 2♣ asking for a heart stopper, what auction are you talking about??? 2♣ in the auction I was responding to just shows clubs, possibly only 3.

[pescetom]

johnu, on 2021-June-19, 10:41, said:

I didn't mention 2♥ was a big hand but I didn't think I needed to. Why would you force the bidding that high without a very good hand.

Yes even "just" asking for a stopper requires a fairly big hand too: but like mikeh I prefer it as a generic game force which does not deny a heart stopper.

johnu, on 2021-June-19, 10:41, said:

As far as 2♣ asking for a heart stopper, what auction are you talking about??? 2♣ in the auction I was responding to just shows clubs, possibly only 3.

It ostensibly shows clubs, might on occasion be 3 card, partner can raise it with 4 cards and good reason, but we both know that 3NT is still in the picture and a heart stopper is the first question.