[helene_t]

I always thought that Moscito is in some way the perfect bidding system - the openings all convey the most important feature of the hand, i.e. with 4M5m31 hands emphasize the 4-card major. Transfer openings are consistent with the useful space principle, and often arranges for the relayer to be declarer, thereby concealing as much as possible about declarer's hand.

But ...
- 15+ is probably too light
- 1♦/1♥ cover a lot of shapes and can also (like the 1♣ opening) become awkward in contested auctions

So I thought that some hands should be taken out of the 1♣/♦/♥ openings to make them less vulnerable to preemption. Borrowing a bit from Blue Club, I came up with

pass=includes 11-12 bal without 4cM
1♣=16+
1♦/1♥=4 or 6+ cards in ♥/♠ (or 5M332), can be 11-12 balanced or can have any canape suit (including the other major)
1♠=11-15 Moscito-like (but should probably deny a 4-card major unless 7+ diamonds)
1NT=13-15, liberal shapes
2♣=11-15, 6+ clubs
2♦=multi
2♥=11-15, 5-5 majors or 5♥4+m
2♠=11-15, 5♠4+m

Maybe the 2♣ opening is underloaded, if 1♦/♥ is allowed with 4M6♣ hands. Not sure what else to put in the 2♣ opening, though.

Any thoughts?

[nullve]

I have a ton of (qualitative, subjective ) experience with including all 1st/2nd seat 11-13 BAL in Pass when playing with myself against myself, and my impression is that that is not only playable (whatever that means, there should be a thread about it!) but seems to lead to more aggressive/preemptive bidding on average, thanks in part to sequences like P-(1x)-2y, than if 11-13 BAL is opened with, say, a natural-or-balanced club or a nebulous diamond.

So while

 helene_t, on 2021-June-07, 21:05, said:

pass=includes 11-12 bal without 4cM

looks more than ok, I'd rather play something based on

1st/2nd seat:

P = "normal" or 11-13 BAL
1♣ = "16+ unBAL" or "17+ BAL"
1N = "14-16 BAL"

3rd/4th seat:

P = 0-7 walrus Milton Work, usually BAL
1♣ = 8 walrus Milton Work to 10, usually BAL OR "16+ unBAL" OR "17+ BAL"
1♦ = "10-12", unBAL shapes consistent with a Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening OR 11-13 BAL, not 5M(332)
1M = Precision (or even standard)
1N = "13-15", unBAL shapes consistent with a Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening OR 14-16 BAL, including all 5M(332)
2♣+ = preempts

P-1N; ?:

(...)
2♣ = weak with 5(+)M3-OM
...P = 5+C1-M' (can "see" that partner has 5(+) M')
...2♦ = 5+D1-M' (can "see" that partner has 5(+) M')
...2♥/♠ = P/C
(...)

where M' is a major not necessarily the same as M.

[nullve]

 helene_t, on 2021-June-07, 21:05, said:

- 15+ is probably too light

Paul Marston (in Moscito 2005) said:

In essence the limited openings are 9-14 HCP but you need to exercise judgement. As a guide, use the rule of 19 with a 5-card major and the rule of 20 with no 5-card major. In marginal cases, go by the queen points (QPs) A=3, K=2, Q=1. A limited opening will normally have 6 to 8 QPs.

So Moscito 2005, at least, doesn't have particularly light limited openings, and I wonder what the real reason is for starting 1♣ at 15 rather than 16 even on unbalanced hands. (Starting at 15 on balanced hands seems more natural if 1N is to cover almost all balanced hands in the 12-14 range.)

[nullve]

Also:

Paul Marston (in Moscito 2005) said:

Finally, with 10-12 HCP and 5 (major) -3-3-2 shape we open two of the major. More about that later.

But he didn't say more about it, did he?

Edit: He does say what the responses to 2M are:

Quote

2NT asks for the doubleton and begins a relay. All other bids are non-forcing and promise nothing

I guess "asks for the doubleton" (my emphasis) implies that the hand contains exactly one doubleton, which is the case if 2M shows 5M(332) shape (and maybe also 10-12 hcp) specifically, but not if 2M is a more common type of Weak Two.

This post has been edited by nullve: 2021-June-12, 05:20

[hrothgar]

 nullve, on 2021-June-12, 04:39, said:

Also:


But he didn't say more about it, did he?

Perhaps not to you :-)

[nullve]

 hrothgar, on 2021-June-12, 04:51, said:

Perhaps not to you :-)

I found some more info. (See edit.)

[Kungsgeten]

I haven't played two-openings like the ones you suggest. Similar to Muiderberg, but here your goal is more constructive. I guess the first step would be to run some hands and see if they're a valid option.

I think 15+ for the 1♣ opening is okay, but may be a bit awkward with the balanced hands. Your modification of 16+ when balanced makes sense to me I would be a bit worried about "anti-field" with a 13-15 range and passing balanced twelves, but it might not be an issue.

I've had some thoughts regarding "modified Moscito" myself. Maybe some ideas could be useful:

I played Moscito for a couple of years, but prior to that we played a two-way pass system with 1♦ and 1♥ as Moscito style transfers. We needed to cover 8-17 balanced at the one-level, and included balanced ranges in both 1♣, 1♠ and 1NT. Playing strong club Moscito this style could look like this:

1♣ = Strong (17+ if balanced).
1♦♥ = Transfer.
1♠ = 11-13 NT.
1NT = 14-16 NT.
2♣♦ = 5+ minor unbal, no major.

I also think a two-way club could be used with Moscito (especially if the other openings are a bit more conservative, like 11-15/16). 1♣ will tend to have less interference than a strong 1♣, it also splits the no trump range a bit compared to 15+ 1♣, and it allows you to search for a 4-4 fit at the one level (but that's also true if you include balanced hands with 4 card majors in your transfer openings, as you suggested). Lots of players bash on the "Polish 2♣", but using the Mosicito base 2♣ can show 6+ cards.

1♣ = 11-13 NT or 16+.
1NT = 14-16.
Others = Moscito.

This could be combined with the previous version: 1♣ could promise a four card major if balanced, while 1♠ could deny one.

While we're at it I think the Moscito 2♣ is pretty rare, especially if you don't use it on 6-4 hands. Not sure if it is worth it, but it could be interesting to put the club single-suiter elsewhere and use 2♣ for something else. "Polish Club Expert" (Baltic club?) put all "primary clubs" hands into 1♣, along with 12-14 NT and 18+ any. Another way could be "Silent Club" where you simply pass if holding a club single-suiter too weak for opening 1♣. Now 2♣ could be used to offload the transfer openings, or perhaps the 1♣ opening.

Pass = Can be up to 14 hcp if holding 6+♣ single-suiter.
1♣ = 15+.
2♣ = Maybe 18-20 NT to take some pressure off the 1♣ balanced range?
2NT and/or 3♣ = Possibly to handle some of the club single-suiters.

A mix of different things:

Pass = Possibly club single-suiter.
1♣ = 11-13 NT or 16+.
1♦♥♠ = Moscito (but see 2m).
1NT = 14-16.
2♣ = 5+ hearts and a 4+ minor, 11-15.
2♦ = 5+ spades and a 4+ minor, 11-15.
2M = Weak.
2NT = Club preempt or good major preempt.
3♣ = 6+♣ decent suit, 10-13.

A variant of the 2m bids above could be to take inspiration from "Finnish Scissors", then 2♣ could show "5 hearts and 4+ clubs, or 5 spades and 4+ diamonds", while 2♦ show "5 hearts and 4+ diamonds, or 5 spades and 4+ clubs".

Yet another thing to consider could be something similar to Verhees - Van Prooijen with their 2♣ opening. I have a local pair who play 2♣ as 4 clubs + 5+M or 6+ clubs. Seems a bit strange to me, but who knows

2♣ = 4+ clubs and 5+M, or 6+♣. Now the major is unknown though
2♦ = Multi.
2M = 5+M and 4+ diamonds.

Okay things are getting out of hand but here's another one

Pass = Natural or minor single-suiter.
1♦♥ = Moscito, but with less shapes included.
1♠ = 5+ spades!
2♣ = Both minors.
2♦ = Multi.
2♥ = 5♥ and 4+m.
2♠ = ?? Maybe something to offload the pass, or maybe some weak thing.

[nullve]

A very (too?) major-oriented strong club system with 1♦/1M/2m/2N openings largely as in Suicide club, an old (and probably not very good!) Swedish Club-like system of mine that I've mentioned before:

P = "normal" or "11-13 BAL"* [including 11-13, 5M(332)?]
1♣ = "16+ unBAL" or "17+ BAL" [no longer Swedish Club-like]
1♦ = "10-15, 5M5-OM"
1♥ = "10-15, either 6+ H, 4H5+m, 44(41) or 13(54)"
1♠ = "10-15, either 6+ S, 4S5+m3-H, 4144 or 31(54)"
(Maybe the 1M openings can be switched.)
1N = "14-16 BAL"**
2m = "10-15", 6+m3-S3-H [5 Om allowed?]
2M = Weak
2N = "10-15", 5(+?)D5(+?)C [I hate the wide range now]

* including 22(54) and (say) 10-12 hcp
** including 22(54) and (say) 13-15 hcp

(I know some of you have toyed with similar 1♦/1M openings.)

Relay stuff with some ideas borrowed from Zelandakh's system and Ambra:

1♦-?:

1♥ = INV+ relay
(...)

1♦-1♥?:

Spoiler

There's too much space, but maybe:

1♠ = 5H3-S or MIN, 5H4S
1N = 5S5H or MAX, 5M4OM
...2♣ = relay
......2♦ = MIN, 5S5H
.........2♥/♠ = to play
.........2N = GF relay
.........(...)
......2♥ = MAX, 5S4H
......2♠ = MAX, 5S5H
......2N+ = MAX, 4S5H
2♣ = MIN, 5S3-H
2♦ = MIN, 5S4H
...2♥/♠ = to play
...2N = GF relay
......3♣ = #C>#D
......3♦ = 5422 (#C=#D)
......3♥ = 5431
......3♠ = 5440
2♥ = MAX, 5S4+C
2♠ = MAX, 5S(332)
2N = MAX, 5S4+D, #C>#H
3♣ = MAX, 5S4+D, #C=#H
...3♦
......3♥ = 5242
......3♠ = 5161
3♦ = MAX, 5341
3♥ = MAX, 5251
3♠ = MAX, 5350
3N = MAX, 5260

1M-?:

(...)
1♠ = NAT
1N = INV+ relay
2♣ = < INV, "P/C"
(...)

1♥-1N; ?:

Spoiler

2♣ = MIN, < 4 S, not 13(54)
2♦ = 4+S6+H, 4H(441) or 13(54)
...2♥
......2♠ = MIN, 6+H4+S
......2N = 1444 or 13(54)
.........3♣
............3♦ = MIN, 13(54)
............3♥ = 1444
...............3♠
..................3N = MIN
..................4♣(+?) = MAX
............3♠ = MAX, 1345
............3N = MAX, 1354
......3♣ = MAX, 4S4H
.........3♦
............3♥ = 4+ C
...............3♠
..................3N = 4414
..................4♣ = 4405
............3♠ = 4441
............3N = 4450
......3♦ = MAX, 6+H4+s, #C>#D
......3♥ = MAX, 6+H4+s, #C=#D
......3♠ = MAX, 4621
......3N = MAX, 4630
......4♣ = MAX, 4720
2♥ = MAX, either 4H5+C3-S3-D or 6+H4+C
2♠ = MAX, 6+ H, 1-suited
2N = MAX, 6+H4+D
...3♣
......3♦ = 6+H4+D, #C>#S
......3♥ = 6+H4+D, #C=#S
......3♠ = 2641
......3N = 3640
......4♣ = 2650
......4♦ = 2740
3♣ = MAX, 4H5+D, #C>#S
...3♦
......3♥ = 1453 or 0454
.........3♠
............3N = 1453
............4♣(+?) = 0454
3♦ = MAX, 4H5+D, #C=#S
...3♥
......3♠ = 2452
......3N = 1471
3♥ = MAX, 3451
3♠ = MAX, 2461
3N = MAX, 3460
4♣ = MAX, 2470

1♠-1N; ?:

Spoiler

2♣ = MIN, < 4 H, not 31(54)
2♦ = 6+S4+H, 4144 or 31(54)
...2♥
......2♠ = MIN, 6+S4+H
......2N = 4144 or 31(54)
.........3♣
............3♦ = MIN, 31(54)
............3♥ = 4144
...............3♠
..................3N = MIN
..................4♣(+?) = MAX
............3♠ = MAX, 3145
............3N = MAX, 3154
......3♣: idle
......3♦ = MAX, 6+S4+H, #C>#D
......3♥ = MAX, 6+S4+H, #C=#D
......3♠ = MAX, 6421
......3N = MAX, 6430
......4♣ = MAX, 6520
......4♦ = MAX, 7420
2♥ = MAX, either 4S5+C3-H3-D or 6+S4+C
2♠ = MAX, 6+ S, 1-suited
2N = MAX, 6+S4+D
...3♣
......3♦ = 6+S4+D, #C>#H
......3♥ = 6+S4+D, #C=#H
......3♠ = 6241
......3N = 6340
......4♣ = 6250
......4♦ = 7240
3♣ = MAX, 4S5+D, #C>#H
...3♦
......3♥ = 4153 or 4054
.........3♠
............3N = 4153
............4♣(+?) = 4054
3♦ = MAX, 4S5+D, #C=#H
...3♥
......3♠ = 4252
......3N = 4171
3♥ = MAX, 4351
3♠ = MAX, 4261
3N = MAX, 4360
4♣ = MAX, 4270

Will correct errors if I find any.

[nige1]

Moscito is an excellent system. I advocated a similar approach in Jasmine. But transfer-openers are a great idea.

[foobar]

 helene_t, on 2021-June-07, 21:05, said:

I always thought that Moscito is in some way the perfect bidding system - the openings all convey the most important feature of the hand, i.e. with 4M5m31 hands emphasize the 4-card major. Transfer openings are consistent with the useful space principle, and often arranges for the relayer to be declarer, thereby concealing as much as possible about declarer's hand.

But ...
- 15+ is probably too light
- 1♦/1♥ cover a lot of shapes and can also (like the 1♣ opening) become awkward in contested auctions

So I thought that some hands should be taken out of the 1♣/♦/♥ openings to make them less vulnerable to preemption. Borrowing a bit from Blue Club, I came up with

pass=includes 11-12 bal without 4cM
1♣=16+
1♦/1♥=4 or 6+ cards in ♥/♠ (or 5M332), can be 11-12 balanced or can have any canape suit (including the other major)
1♠=11-15 Moscito-like (but should probably deny a 4-card major unless 7+ diamonds)
1NT=13-15, liberal shapes
2♣=11-15, 6+ clubs
2♦=multi
2♥=11-15, 5-5 majors or 5♥4+m
2♠=11-15, 5♠4+m

Maybe the 2♣ opening is underloaded, if 1♦/♥ is allowed with 4M6♣ hands. Not sure what else to put in the 2♣ opening, though.

Any thoughts?

Agree with the 15+ being too light for the 1♣ opening. Have you taken a look at SCAMP? It's addresses some issues noted above, and features a stronger 1♣ opening.

1♣: 16+
1♦: 4+ spades, not 4+♥ -> This allows 1♥ as a range ask
1♥: 4+♥, not 4+♠ -> Can be passed to play
1♠: Both majors
1N: 12-15
2m: Natural

[pescetom]

 foobar, on 2021-August-02, 11:12, said:

Agree with the 15+ being too light for the 1♣ opening. Have you taken a look at SCAMP? It's addresses some issues noted above, and features a stronger 1♣ opening.

1♣: 16+
1♦: 4+ spades, not 4+♥ -> This allows 1♥ as a range ask
1♥: 4+♥, not 4+♠ -> Can be passed to play
1♠: Both majors
1N: 12-15
2m: Natural

I'm not ready for this stuff yet, but SCAMP looks interesting.
Where do I find more please?

[foobar]

 pescetom, on 2021-August-02, 15:28, said:

I'm not ready for this stuff yet, but SCAMP looks interesting.
Where do I find more please?

You can find the book here (it's in paperback as well): https://www.bridgewo...page_2299.html.

It was definitely an enjoyable read, even if you don't decide to adopt things "as is", and there was a discussion on a potential ACBL-legal version on Bridgewinners (for shorter events; it should be fine for Open events with 6+ boards).

There are several noteworthy topics related to symmetric relays, including the use of an alternative to the classic 4♦ terminator puppet, and also an interesting take on DCB. It also features a comparison with various versions of Moscito, and the respective pros and cons.

BTW, I think the author (Nick Hughes) frequents these forums, so he might chime in with a word or two.

[pescetom]

 foobar, on 2021-August-02, 16:13, said:

You can find the book here (it's in paperback as well): https://www.bridgewo...page_2299.html.

It was definitely an enjoyable read, even if you don't decide to adopt things "as is", and there was a discussion on a potential ACBL-legal version on Bridgewinners (for shorter events; it should be fine for Open events with 6+ boards).

There are several noteworthy topics related to symmetric relays, including the use of an alternative to the classic 4♦ terminator puppet, and also an interesting take on DCB. It also features a comparison with various versions of Moscito, and the respective pros and cons.

BTW, I think the author (Nick Hughes) frequents these forums, so he might chime in with a word or two.

Thanks, I suspect that will get me through a good part of winter.

[nullve]

1st/2nd seat:

P: includes 11-13 BAL
1♣ = "16+" unBAL or 17+ BAL
1♦ = "10-15", either 6+m3-S3-H, 5+m4+Om3-S3-H or 5M4+m3-OM
1♥ = "10-15", either 6+H3-S, 5H6S, 4H5+m or 4H(441)
1♠ = "10-15", either 6+S3-H, 5S5+H, 4S5+m3-H or 4144
1N = 14-16 BAL
2♣+ = weak preempts

1♦-?:

P: allowed
1♥/1N/2m: not sure
1♠ = GF relay
2♥+ = P/C?

1♦-1♠; ?:

1N = C 1-suiter or 5M4+C but not 5044
...2♣
......2♦ = 5H4+C
......2♥ = 5S4+C, 2-suited
......2♠+ = C 1-suiter
2♣ = D+C 2-suiter
...2♦
......2♥ = 4D5+C
......2♠ = 5+D5+C
......2N+ = 5+D4C
2♦ = 5H4+D or 5044
2♥ = 5S4+D, 2-suited
...2♠
......2N = high (= H) shortage
......3♣ = 5242
......3♦ = 5341
......3♥ = 5251
......3♠ = 5350
......3N = 5260
2♠+ = D 1-suiter

(essentially kind of a canapé version of what I suggested here)


1♥-?:

1N = GF relay
other: not sure (but see 1♠-?: below)


1♥-1N; ?:

2♣ = 4H5+D, 6+H4+D or 3-suited but not 4S4H
...2♦
......2♥ = 3-suited, not 4S4H
.........2♠
............2N = 54(40)
...............3♣
..................3♦ = 5404
..................3♥ = 5440
............3♣ = 1444
............3♦ = 0445
............3♥ = 0454
......2♠ = 6+H4+D
......2N+ = 4H5+D
2♦ = 5+ S, 2-suited OR 3-suited w/ 4S4H
...2♥
......2♠ = 3-suited w/ 4S4H
.........2N
............3♣ = high (= D) shortage
............3♦ = even shortage
...............3♥
..................3♠ = 6511
............3♥ = 4441
............3♠ = 4450
............3N = 6520
......2N+ = 4H5+S
2♥ = 4H5+C, 2-suited
2♠ = 6+H4+C
...2N
......3♣ = high (=S) shortage
......3♦ = even shortage
.........3♥
............3♠ = 1615
............3N = 1714
......3♥ = 2614
......3♠ = 3604
......3N = 2605
......4♣ = 2704
2N+ = 1-suited (+1 but 6+ H)

1♠-?:

1N = GF relay
2♣ = INV relay
...E.g.:
...2♦ = 5+ H
...2♥ = 6+ S
...2♠ = MIN, either 4S5+m OR 4144
...2N = MAX, 5+ C
...3♣ = MAX, 5+ D
2♦ = WK, P/C
others: not sure


1♠-1N; ?:

2♣ = 4S5+D, 6+S4+D or 3-suited
...2♦
......2♥ = 3-suited
.........2♠
............2N = 45(40)
...............3♣
..................3♦ = 4504
..................3♥ = 4540
............3♣ = 4144
............3♦ = 4045
............3♥ = 4054
......2♠ = 6+S4+D or 5S6+D
......2N+ = 4S5+D
2♦ = 5+ H, 2-suited
...2♥
......2♠ = 5S5+H
......2N+ = 4S5+H
2♥ = 4S5+C, 2-suited
2♠ = 6+S4+C
...2N
......3♣ = high (=H) shortage
......3♦ = even shortage
.........3♥
............3♠ = 6115
............3N = 7114
......3♥ = 6214
......3♠ = 6304
......3N = 6205
......4♣ = 7204
2N+ = 1-suited (+1 but 6+ S)