[apollo1201]

Thanks both for your hints.

I found another one after some research and it looks like the one I had heard of, which is at 4NT but coping for the fact that partner has at most 1 ace + KQ trumps. It says 5C no ace (5D asks for one or tow between K and Q), 5D one ace, 5H one ace + K or Q and 5s one ace + both KQ.

Seems playable as well over 3 and 4 level openings.

[mikeh]

 Joe_Old, on 2021-June-06, 10:05, said:

I have played a BW where only the AKQ of Opener's suit is described, ignoring any outside cards:

first step: no A or K
second step: one A or K
third step: A and K without Q
fourth step: A and K with Q

It is used only where Responder has the side suits covered and is trying to judge slam in Opener's suit. It is initiated by Responder bidding Clubs at the cheapest level, (except Diamonds after a Club pre empt), leaving room for Responder to investigate interest in a Major suit.

What would you open with, say, x Ax xxx KJ10xxxx white v red 1st seat?

Not opening 3C is, imo, tantamount to giving up.

Many years ago, two friends who were solid flight B players told me that they never opened a weak 2M with a side Ace.

I asked them what they’d open with xx KQ109xx xx Axx

They both said: 2H

[pescetom]

 paulg, on 2021-June-06, 14:07, said:

Pre-emptive Roman Keycard Blackwood is fairly popular and I think it was in one of Bergen's books.

Over a 3♦/3♥/3♠ opening bid, then 4♣ asks and the responses are:

4♦ - zero key cards
4♥ - one key card without the queen
4♠ - one key card with the queen
4NT - two key cards without the queen
5♣ - two key cards with the queen

Over a 3♣ opening, then 4♦ is used.

Italians call this "poor man's RKCB".
I prefer to play it as a kickback with normal 14032-2+ responses, this saves considerable memory load and is almost as efficient overall.

[Joe_Old]

 mikeh, on 2021-June-07, 11:09, said:

What would you open with, say, x Ax xxx KJ10xxxx white v red 1st seat?

Not opening 3C is, imo, tantamount to giving up.

Many years ago, two friends who were solid flight B players told me that they never opened a weak 2M with a side Ace.

I asked them what they’d open with xx KQ109xx xx Axx

They both said: 2H

What a bizarre comment.

The point I was making is that TWO kinds of Ace asking bids are available. If all Responder needs to know is the quality of Opener's suit, use the trump suit specific BW. Responder still has the regular RKC bid to find out if Opener has an outside Ace.

[mikeh]

 Joe_Old, on 2021-June-07, 15:55, said:

What a bizarre comment.

The point I was making is that TWO kinds of Ace asking bids are available. If all Responder needs to know is the quality of Opener's suit, use the trump suit specific BW. Responder still has the regular RKC bid to find out if Opener has an outside Ace.

If you meant you had TWO methods, you should have said so....and you wouldn’t need to write TWO if you had done so, lol. Shouting would be unnecessary.

As for the merits, I think they are not well designed.

You only need your stated methods when you have a side void. I’ve played a lot of bridge...catering to asking for keycards after partner preempts, and you have a side void and the opps don’t bid....well, you’ll be waiting a long time for it to happen twice (I guess it happened once, so someone had this bright idea). Meanwhile, you have to jump to 4N otherwise, which may prove inconvenient, depending on his responses. Which is why using 4C ( or 4D over 3C) was invented.

[helene_t]

I just bid a Neanderthal 6♠. They might not lead a club.

[foobar]

 mikeh, on 2021-June-07, 11:09, said:

What would you open with, say, x Ax xxx KJ10xxxx white v red 1st seat?

Not opening 3C is, imo, tantamount to giving up.

At that vul, surely not opening it 4♣ is giving up ?

[Joe_Old]

 mikeh, on 2021-June-07, 16:39, said:

If you meant you had TWO methods, you should have said so....and you wouldn’t need to write TWO if you had done so, lol. Shouting would be unnecessary.

As for the merits, I think they are not well designed.

You only need your stated methods when you have a side void. I’ve played a lot of bridge...catering to asking for keycards after partner preempts, and you have a side void and the opps don’t bid....well, you’ll be waiting a long time for it to happen twice (I guess it happened once, so someone had this bright idea). Meanwhile, you have to jump to 4N otherwise, which may prove inconvenient, depending on his responses. Which is why using 4C ( or 4D over 3C) was invented.

lol - as if I'm smart enough to "make up" these conventions. Apollo asked if a certain BW convention exists. It does. You don't like it? Don't use it. The reason I mentioned it is that Apollo's query, in context, seemed to include any special BW conventions for 4 level pre empts, and this is the only one I've ever heard of suggested for use at that level.

If it was the best convention ever invented, all the top players would use it. I don't know of any pro who uses it, mostly because (as you point out) 4C is cheaper that 4NT, and there are standard ways to locate features after a weak 2. As for "needing a side void", no, 3 side Aces and sufficient side suit tricks also apply.

The player to showed this convention to me liked it because it can be used over a weak 2, stay below game, and keep 3NT in play. It can also be used over a 3 or 4 level pre empt with no ambiguity. I play it with him to see how it works, and so far it hasn't come up after roughly 300 hands (which says a lot about how necessary special BW for pre empts is).

So go ahead Mike, now you can be rude again. Get your kicks.

[mikeh]

 Joe_Old, on 2021-June-07, 20:23, said:

lol - as if I'm smart enough to "make up" these conventions. Apollo asked if a certain BW convention exists. It does. You don't like it? Don't use it. The reason I mentioned it is that Apollo's query, in context, seemed to include any special BW conventions for 4 level pre empts, and this is the only one I've ever heard of suggested for use at that level.

If it was the best convention ever invented, all the top players would use it. I don't know of any pro who uses it, mostly because (as you point out) 4C is cheaper that 4NT, and there are standard ways to locate features after a weak 2. As for "needing a side void", no, 3 side Aces and sufficient side suit tricks also apply.

The player to showed this convention to me liked it because it can be used over a weak 2, stay below game, and keep 3NT in play. It can also be used over a 3 or 4 level pre empt with no ambiguity. I play it with him to see how it works, and so far it hasn't come up after roughly 300 hands (which says a lot about how necessary special BW for pre empts is).

So go ahead Mike, now you can be rude again. Get your kicks.

Your idea of fun is taking turns being rude? I’ll leave you the the last shot, since you seem to enjoy it. Have fun.