[dickiegera]

♣

2 clubs was intented to be 4th suit game force. West doubled with 5 pts 4 spades and 5 clubs

---

Was there a better bid than south's 2♣

And can North pass the 2♠ bid.

if not how should bidding go to reach 3NT?

2 spades made 5 as would 3NT make 5.


Thank you

[Stephen Tu]

-If N/S are playing support redoubles, South could arguably just bid 3nt on 2nd turn, because then 3cd heart support has already been denied. But 2♣ is not unreasonable if South feels a single stopper might not be sufficient and that a 5-2 heart fit might be better.

-North cannot pass 2♠, because 2♣ created a GF (if that is your agreement). But nor should South bid 2 spades, holding 3 cd support only for spades and plausible alternative of 2nt (also GF)

-North should arguably bid 2nt over the 2nd double as a descriptive call.

[FelicityR]

I personally don't like North's 1♠ bid. Just bid 1NT here. Easy to reach 3NT after that.

Edit (after posts 4,5,6 have been added to this thread): Whilst I come from an Acol background of bidding 4 card suits up the line, I feel rebidding 1NT here (in 2/1) is preferable to 1♠ for the simple reason that West has indicated a ♠ suit by the Dbl. Yes, there will be times where you may miss a ♠ fit by bypassing bidding 1♠,but you already know that if you end up in a ♠ contract that trumps are going to break badly.

Furthermore, as Vampyr has indicated, you are giving the impression to your partner that your hand is a two suiter with ♦/♠ or 4144 shape. I feel rebidding 1NT is preferable, too, as you have a maximum 14HCP count to rebid 1NT in 2/1 together with some indication from West's Dbl. that your black suit points are very well-placed.

[Vampyr]

FelicityR, on 2020-August-29, 10:58, said:

I personally don't like North's 1♠ bid. Just bid 1NT here. Easy to reach 3NT after that.

Yes, especially if they had some way to check back.

Showing a 2-suited when you actually have a balanced hand is a big mistake. North has shown either longer clubs than spades or 4=1=4=4.

[Stephen Tu]

Vampyr, on 2020-August-29, 13:41, said:

Showing a 2-suited when you actually have a balanced hand is a big mistake. North has shown either longer clubs than spades or 4=1=4=4.

That's a matter of style more than anything; I wouldn't characterize it as a "big mistake". If one is playing that balanced hands bid up the line over 1H, 1 spade does not at all show 2-suited, only shows 4-4 in diamonds and spades here (not clubs I assume you miswrote above), and can be balanced. Both treatments have pros and cons. Promising unbalanced makes supporting diamonds on 3 clearer, and allows one to get to 2H on 5-3 and 5-2 fits when responder is weak easier after the 1nt rebid instead of 1S. But bypassing spades misses the often better spade partial when responder is weak with 4-4 or 4-5 in the majors without enough strength to checkback.

Now if one normally plays an up-the-line style, one could make argument that you should change priorities after the double, but it requires discussion. Maybe North should just be passing?

[pescetom]

FelicityR, on 2020-August-29, 10:58, said:

I personally don't like North's 1♠ bid. Just bid 1NT here. Easy to reach 3NT after that.

That is a matter of partnership style, either style is playable and has its merits.

Another matter of partnership style is whether 4th suit is still game forcing after opponents' takeout double. IIRC when I played 4SGF it downgraded to a 1 round force after a takeout double, although playing XYZ I prefer to maintain the game force.

[posted without reading stephen_tu's post, which I agree with]

[nige1]

DickieGera '2 clubs was intended to be 4th suit game force. West doubled with 5 pts 4 spades and 5 clubs. 1. Was there a better bid than south's 2♣?
2. And can North pass the 2♠ bid.?
3. If not how should bidding go to reach 3NT?
++++++++++++++++++++
Hands rotated to make West dealer. IMO ...
0. I like Stephen Tu's suggestion that opener passes 1♥X.
1. 2♣ rebid fine. Simplest is 4th suit G/F, unless you're a passed hand.
2. in principle No. In practice with a respectable 14 HCP, definitely No.
3. Opener might bid 3♥ but 2N seems better -- auction on left

---

[digiharuka]

a) North 1♠ is acceptable but 1NT is much better after West's Dbl. If no ♠Q, i will Pass.

b) South 2♣ is fine, seeking 8 cards ♥ contract.

After 2♣-Dbl, North Pass will describe the hand as: 4-2-4-3/4-1-4-4, and extreme minimum HCP.
No 5+ cards♦ : otherwise bid 2/3♦;
No 3 cards♥ : otherwise bid 2/3♥;
No 4 cards♣ : otherwise may bid 3♣, but rare;
and NO ♣ stopper : otherwise bid 2NT.

c) I bid 3NT. South knows no 8 cards ♠ and ♥ and no short suit(no ruffing power in 4 Majors), holding ♣A prevents defender running ♣, South also is opening hand (13HCP, 7.5 NLTC), enough to go 3NT.

[dsLawsd]

1NT to show a balanced hand with stoppers. Then 2C asks about hearts invitational. Playing XYZ would of course suggest 2♦because of the good heart suit. But 3 NT might be an easy to make given the positional values.

[msjennifer]

Sir,
In the sequence of bidding described,2♣ as is NORMALLY played is a bid Forcing to Game.As to whether 1♠ be bid is a matter of partnership style.We bid 1♠ to show a 3Card heart support, and redouble with a 3 card good support like KQx ready to play upto 3♥ stronger hand with only 6 losers and as normal a bid of 2♥ shows a normal hand with 4 card support.We do not bid 1♠ to show spades.With the present hand we would pass the TOD by RHO.THANKS

[nekthen]

Nothing is more frustrating in bridge than seeing a fatuous bid by opps lead to a sub optimal result. I think North should pass the double of 1♥,
we want to keep open the possibility that we can punish the doubler. The important point is that by passing we force N to bid. We can often get more from doubling the resulting contract than we would get from a part score or even game. I think it would be good to agree that pass shows 0-2 ♥, but otherwise nothing more about the hand. It also sets up the agreement that any double by partner or you is for money. If N has the temerity to pass E has an easy redouble

[aawk]

Yes north can pass telling partner I don't have stopper in ♣, no 3 card ♥ and no 5+ card ♦.

In this situation and the 4th suit was GF 3nt is the bid showing a ♣ stopper and a minimum (2nt would show extra values).

[pescetom]

I'm still mildly surprised that everyone assumes the 4th suit is a game force in this auction. Not that I think it is a bad agreement (quite the contrary) but that some sources (e.g. ACBL The Bidding Toolkit, bridgebum) would have 4SF off altogether after any intervention, including an early takeout double, and others would have it regress to a 1 round force. I'm happy to play XYZ where any game force is clearly a choice of responder.

[Stephen Tu]

pescetom, on 2020-August-30, 06:24, said:

I'm still mildly surprised that everyone assumes the 4th suit is a game force in this auction. Not that I think it is a bad agreement (quite the contrary) but that some sources (e.g. ACBL The Bidding Toolkit, bridgebum) would have 4SF off altogether after any intervention, including an early takeout double

Those articles are not meant to be completely thorough, just an introduction to the topic for beginners, they have inaccuracies. If you are using 4sf or whatever gadget surely it still has to be on in this continuation, otherwise what else can you possibly use to force? I think the other articles assume that the opponents bid something naturally and a cue bid is available, but if NS has just ignored doubles and bid naturally, 4SGFA must still be on if that is the agreement, or alternatively XYZ etc., as there is nothing to cue bid and there's no bidding card that means "let's rewind the auction so I can redouble for power".

[Huibertus]

4th suit forcing being a game force is a matter of partnership agreement. Some partnerships play 2♣/2♦ as invitational +.

IF 2♣ is INV+ then East should bid 3N instead of 2♠. However, this hand also illustrates why playing support redoubles may not be the wisest thing. If E in reality has an invitational hand then W should be able to redouble to show an interest to defend. NS will go down at least two to allow EW to win against any part score they would end up in without South's double. And on this E hand EW would still be able to reach 3N.

If partnership agreement is 2♣ is a game force, 2♣ followed by 2♠ by E is fine as W is not allowed to pass. However I would still want to redouble with the W to show interest to defend, if E has more clubs (less ♥ and or less ♠) NS will not escape for less then game value. And if NS to decide to let you play 1♥XX that should normally be fine on a 4-2 fit with having at least 26/27 HCP.

[miamijd]

dickiegera, on 2020-August-29, 10:21, said:

♣

2 clubs was intented to be 4th suit game force. West doubled with 5 pts 4 spades and 5 clubs

---

Was there a better bid than south's 2♣

And can North pass the 2♠ bid.

if not how should bidding go to reach 3NT?

2 spades made 5 as would 3NT make 5.




Thank you

1. North can pass 1HX; he can bid 1S; he can bid 1NT. I don't have a strong preference. Any of those bids could work out well.

2. Assuming N/S play support doubles, S might try 3NT at his second call. On the other hand, West has shown the black suits, and South only has Ax in clubs. Maybe a 5/2 H game is better. 2C isn't unreasonable at all.

3. No, North can't pass 2S, because 2C ought to be 4SF. That is a GF.

4. With only 10X in H and Kxx in clubs, I would bid 2NT with the North hand, after which South will bid 3NT.

Cheers,
Mike

[perko90]

To pile on,
2♣ was a good bid.
No, N can't pass 2♠.
N should have replied 2NT in response to the 4SF bid.