[FelicityR]

Yes I know, nine card suits happen very, very rarely but I held the following hand last night at rubber bridge. What interests me - and I hope that it interests you - is the thinking about sacrificing against opponents who have already shown their strong hands. I have made the poll to reflect MPs and IMPs, too. At rubber I opted for the "sensible bid" of 4♠ as it was the last rubber of the evening and were already a game down, though a part of me felt I should have done more. (At MPs and IMPs, with the favourable vulnerability, I feel there is a good case for aggressive barrage bidding here.)

The opponents that night were good club players, reliable bidders, and 2♣ showed a Game Forcing Hand, usually 22+, and 3♥ showed a solid suit with either AKQJxx or AKQxxxx. Given that appears that the opponents are now definitely heading for slam, how would you bid with my cards?

And as always, thank you for your replies. Here's my hand:-

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[Cyberyeti]

At rubber bridge I would do this very differently to any other form, not vul v vul I would bid 4♠ and stay quiet thereafter, at IMPs, 5♠ and sell to 6 any, but save over 7 unless partner cracks it.

I expect to go for 1400 against the grand which is less than the cost of a small, but at MPs the risk is that they will bid a making 7N and I'll get a terrible score with the rest of the world in 7 of a suit, so I'm not sure what I do at MPs.

[nige1]

FelicityR 'Yes I know, nine card suits happen very, very rarely but I held the following hand last night at rubber bridge. What interests me - and I hope that it interests you - is the thinking about sacrificing against opponents who have already shown their strong hands. I have made the poll to reflect MPs and IMPs, too. At rubber I opted for the "sensible bid" of 4♠ as it was the last rubber of the evening and were already a game down, though a part of me felt I should have done more. (At MPs and IMPs, with the favourable vulnerability, I feel there is a good case for aggressive barrage bidding here.) The opponents that night were good club players, reliable bidders, and 2♣ showed a Game Forcing Hand, usually 22+, and 3♥ showed a solid suit with either AKQJxx or AKQxxxx. Given that appears that the opponents are now definitely heading for slam, how would you bid with my cards?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
At all forms of scoring, I rank
1, 5♠ = PRE Cuts out opponent's 4N = RKC, but might push them into slam.
2. 4♠ = PRE.
As FelicityR points out your concern is no defensive values, so you don't know how high to sacrifice. Perhaps you should bid 5/4♠ and then shut up

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[rmnka447]

I'd do very similar to cyberyeti.

At rubber bridge, I'm bidding 4 ♠.

The consideration at competitive forms of bridge is to interfere enough to make it difficult for the opponents to find their best spot. Since it appears that the opponents are headed to slam anyway, I think 5 ♠ is the bid to make at both IMPs and MPs. It takes away virtually all of their bidding space leaving them not much room to decide both strain and level. The worst case scenario for 5 ♠x is down 5 which is -1400.

Where I would differ from cy would be that after making the 5 ♠ bid, I'd remain silent. If the opponents get to 7 whatever and the contract makes, I'd tip my hat to them and move on to the next board. What I don't want to do is go for -1700 or -2000 in 7 ♠x and find that their best possible score was +1370, +1430, or + 1440.

[Cyberyeti]

rmnka447, on 2019-July-02, 08:19, said:

I'd do very similar to cyberyeti.

At rubber bridge, I'm bidding 4 ♠.

The consideration at competitive forms of bridge is to interfere enough to make it difficult for the opponents to find their best spot. Since it appears that the opponents are headed to slam anyway, I think 5 ♠ is the bid to make at both IMPs and MPs. It takes away virtually all of their bidding space leaving them not much room to decide both strain and level. The worst case scenario for 5 ♠x is down 5 which is -1400.

Where I would differ from cy would be that after making the 5 ♠ bid, I'd remain silent. If the opponents get to 7 whatever and the contract makes, I'd tip my hat to them and move on to the next board. What I don't want to do is go for -1700 or -2000 in 7 ♠x and find that their best possible score was +1370, +1430, or + 1440.

I'm only expecting to lose 2 trumps and thus only go for 1400 in 7♠ vs 1430/1440 in 6♥/N with a possible 1100 if they have stiff A opposite stiff K or J.

[neilkaz]

I don't even recall how to score rubber, so I'll just say what I do at IMPs and MPs and that is bid 5♠and shut up. PD is still there. PD also might have an ace on a lucky day.

[gszes]

5 spades all scoring forms. We are doing our best to try and make THEM guess how high and where they belong. There is JUST enough wiggle room for them to have doubt. If I was certain they had all the aces I would bid 7s instead and I am severly tempted even under these circumstances.

[LBengtsson]

4♠ at money bridge. 5♠ at matchpoints or Imps. Pass might be right decision also as opponents might go cold on bidding to the maximum knowing breaks could be bad. If declarer has a stiff ♥ as entry to dummy with his strong hand, then he already know he's got extra 3+ tricks plus his own GF hand. You bidding ♠ wont stop him bidding slam.

[nekthen]

I voted other. Other = pass

I see two favourable outcomes.
1. They bid the slam in hearts and go down due to a spade ruff. Please p do not get out lightner double!
2. It is the last rubber of the night. Opps get lazy or take pity and conservatively underbid.

4 spades achieves nothing. Chances are opps next bid was 4N anyway (side bar is there a case for double meaning exclusion blackwood?)
At rubber especially, lets say you go for 1100. You are now in a rubber that you cannot win even if you score two games before the opps get their one.
You are like the punter who doubles his stake every time he loses. (Note this is NOT a good strategy)
At the club, a random 5 spades might get you a top (passed out) but against competent opps you will lose. The 2 club bidder should be able to place the contract already

[Cyberyeti]

nekthen, on 2019-July-03, 04:00, said:

4 spades achieves nothing. Chances are opps next bid was 4N anyway (side bar is there a case for double meaning exclusion blackwood?)
At rubber especially, lets say you go for 1100. You are now in a rubber that you cannot win even if you score two games before the opps get their one.
You are like the punter who doubles his stake every time he loses. (Note this is NOT a good strategy)
At the club, a random 5 spades might get you a top (passed out) but against competent opps you will lose. The 2 club bidder should be able to place the contract already

4♠ achieves exactly one thing, it can make opener's hand really awkward to bid on some freaks with a long not 100% solid minor particularly with a heart void (most people will show a solid suit on AKQ 7th, is that enough, is there a side entry to get to it in NT, does he have the J as well etc), 5♠ is better, but at rubber, you don't want to go for very many at all against a slam as the odds are you're going to lose the rubber anyway.

[dsLawsd]

We know 6♥ is cold most of the time- but other contracts are possible. I mostly agree with Cyberyeti: but here is a thought.

At matchpoints I choose 3♠ only because sometimes the opponents then get to the WRONG slam. In essence bidding 3 sounds stronger so that might keep them out of 7 when they belong and also might tip them away from NT 2when that is better. And, of course partner can hear the auction and might take a smart action.

At rubber there is no sure call- any bid above 4 might give them more $$$ by pushing them up potentially forcing me to sac. So it will involve table feel - I feel poorer already...

[ray_p]

Your best weapon looks the low chance of surprising with a bad spade break against a heart contract, for which you'd be on lead.

A bid is guessing, and probably helping them to find the best contract because they already know more than you.

Be passive and Keep quiet, hoping they don't go for a safer NT contract.
At MP you could then make a marginal decision from the bidding whether to sacrifice in 7S over 6NT - as spades probably with W and 7Sx-7 very possible. Although very unlikely decision in rubber where you'd still be a game behind.