[apollo1201]

IMPs, red vs. red

Partner opens a 15-17 NT and you have

Kx
x
T98xx
AJ9xx

Is there a way to convey this type of hand?

Our agreements are transfers (should be 6-cd minors unless GF where 55 minors or 54 minors with singleton can start with transfer), Stayman and 2NT invitational (semi)balanced. But there might be better agreements.

I chose 2C to see what happens, partner bids 2H (denying 4-cd S), I bid 2NT (faking I had S), she bid 3 making on a lucky C break. So fine so good but not too satisfying intellectually...

[kuhchung]

if you don't have a call in your NT structure for showing 5-5 minors invite, then I would show it as 5-5 minors GF in your system however you do that. This may not be a satisfactory answer to your question, but it is a very common bridge problem that no call will show your hand perfectly. You will have the option of showing your values but not the nature of your hand, or vice versa. When it's close, show the nature of your hand, overbid, and guarantee finding the correct strain. On this type of hand, 1N might even go down when 5m makes!

What you definitely should NOT do is bid Stayman. You say you got lucky that partner bid 3(NT I assume) and made it. I would say that you got lucky that partner didn't bid 4S!

edit: oh apparently 2H response to stayman denies 4S. whatever, other way around then, if partner respond 2S and you bid 2N, now she bids 4H...

[dsLawsd]

2♠ minor suit Stayman is possible given the 8 point holding- see what partner responds. No bid is perfect as mentioned above. The worse that will happen is you have to decide how to invite or over 2NT should you raise ? With the right hand partner might be able to bid 5 of a minor since your hand type will have been painted fairly well for them.

[nekthen]

I use this structure to respond to 1N
Stayman and RST then
2♠ is a range inquiry that may include either a strong hand 55 or better in minors or a weak hand with a long minor
Partner responds 2N weak or 3♣ strong then you show the strong minors hand by bidding 3 of your short major
2N shows either a strong single suiter or a weak two suiter
Partner now bids his better minor and if responder has a strong single suiter he bids 3♥ to show clubs etc
FWIW
3♣ puppet stayman
3♦ 3145 or 3154 slam oriented
3♥ 1345 or 1354
3♠ 54xx GF

[msjennifer]

Sirs the problem arises as the Stayman structure and four suit transfers do not have any provision for the pair to play in either of the minors at the 3level holding a 5/5 in the minors.One solution is to decide whether one wishes to play in a part game in C/D ,if opener is minimum and play in game in C/D if opener is maximum.Playing 2S transfer as a 3 way bid and 2NT also as a three way bid is possible.Another slightly inferior is to play 2C bid not as stayman but a general purpose relay.(We have developed and used it successfully).Anyhow this has to be discussed and most certainly it can not be used as regular accepted convention.

[HardVector]

To answer this, you really should provide what kind of bidding structure you are using. It seemed like you were saying you playing 4 suit transfers. If that is the case, then 1n-3c/3d is usually used to show 5/5 minors inv/forcing since with just clubs or diamonds you would transfer.

[apollo1201]

 kuhchung, on 2019-February-20, 17:43, said:

edit: oh apparently 2H response to stayman denies 4S. whatever, other way around then, if partner respond 2S and you bid 2N, now she bids 4H...

2S also denies 4-cd H😝
But you made a good advice abt showing my hand to be in the right strain. I will remember that!

[apollo1201]

 HardVector, on 2019-February-21, 03:46, said:

To answer this, you really should provide what kind of bidding structure you are using. It seemed like you were saying you playing 4 suit transfers. If that is the case, then 1n-3c/3d is usually used to show 5/5 minors inv/forcing since with just clubs or diamonds you would transfer.

2NT is nat, 3C is D transfer. 3D/H are strong transfers for slammish hands with 6-cd H/S. I know we have to upgrade all that! It just proves it...and having options played by others would help 😃

[kuhchung]

Oh, your Stayman is very non standard. In that case, yeah, I guess you might as well lie about your hand to your opponents while inviting. Funny.

[JLilly]

I infer that your transfer to clubs is 2♠, yeah? If so, you can overload this response by assigning meanings to opener's rebid of 2N versus 3♣. You can accommodate a 5-5 invitational hand by, for example, having opener rebid 2N with a hand that declines the invitation. If responder had the weak hand with clubs, they bid 3♣, or the 5-5 invitational hand that can't stomach playing in 2N, they also bid 3♣, which opener must pass. If they have a GF hand with clubs, they bid whatever they would bid after the 2♠-3♣ transfer.

[PhilG007]

 apollo1201, on 2019-February-20, 16:09, said:

IMPs, red vs. red

Partner opens a 15-17 NT and you have

Kx
x
T98xx
AJ9xx

Is there a way to convey this type of hand?

Our agreements are transfers (should be 6-cd minors unless GF where 55 minors or 54 minors with singleton can start with transfer), Stayman and 2NT invitational (semi)balanced. But there might be better agreements.

I chose 2C to see what happens, partner bids 2H (denying 4-cd S), I bid 2NT (faking I had S), she bid 3 making on a lucky C break. So fine so good but not too satisfying intellectually...

I would pass this hand without any hesitation and hope that partner has the hearts well stopped.

[apollo1201]

 JLilly, on 2019-February-21, 13:29, said:

I infer that your transfer to clubs is 2♠, yeah? If so, you can overload this response by assigning meanings to opener's rebid of 2N versus 3♣. You can accommodate a 5-5 invitational hand by, for example, having opener rebid 2N with a hand that declines the invitation. If responder had the weak hand with clubs, they bid 3♣, or the 5-5 invitational hand that can't stomach playing in 2N, they also bid 3♣, which opener must pass. If they have a GF hand with clubs, they bid whatever they would bid after the 2♠-3♣
transfer.

Interesting, thanks.

[mikeh]

 apollo1201, on 2019-February-21, 12:15, said:

2NT is nat, 3C is D transfer. 3D/H are strong transfers for slammish hands with 6-cd H/S. I know we have to upgrade all that! It just proves it...and having options played by others would help 😃

Having played many, many systems over virtually every range of 1N, here is what I currently play and, apart from an esoteric relay method that is too complex for any but one former partner (who invented it but has quit bridge), this is the most effective I have played.

2C: stayman. Follow-ups include smolen. 2C promises at least 1 4 card major

2D/H: transfers. If followed by a jump to game, then this shows 6+ in the suit and is a mild slam try

2S: multiple meanings. The most common hand is a natural 2N invite, but other meanings are long clubs or a very strong minor 2-suiter or any very strong balanced hand (at least the values for a natural 4N response). See below.

2N: diamonds, any strength

3C: 5-5 or better in the minors, invitational values

3D: 5-5 in the majors, invitational values

3H: 5-5 in the minors, gf

3S: 5-5 majors, gf

3N: to play

4C: gerber

4D: 6+ hearts. Either to play or strong slam interest (will be bidding again)

4H: 6+ spades. Either to play or strong slam interest

4S: in theory to play, preferring to be declarer. Hasn't happened yet and probably never will:)



Over 1N 2S

Opener bids 2N with all hands that would reject a 2N invite.

If opener bids 2N, 3C by responder is to play. 3D is CONFI (shows a strong balanced hand with real extras....since opener bid 2N, he denies a hand that would bid over a natural 4N. Hence with a 4N hand, responder would bid 3N. Thus 3D is a HUGE hand...not slam forcing necessarily but still interested despite opener's minimum). 3H is a big minor 2-suiter with longer clubs, and 3S is a big minor 2-suiter with longer diamonds. All gf.

If opener bids 3C over 2S, he says nothing about his suitability for clubs: merely that he would have bid 3N over a natural invitational 2N. Responder can pass, to play in 3C. 3D is CONFI, and 3H/S are the minor 2-suiters, with asymmetrical length. 3N is to play.

One need not play the 3-level structure with 3D-3S: the method is excellent without this, and the memory work required to play these low-frequency gadgets is very high, while the consequences of a forget can be even higher.

However, using 2S as 'range-ask or clubs' is extremely powerful.

Why?

Imagine you are on lead against 3N after 1N 2S 3C 3N and you hold Q108x Q108x Axx xx.

Then imagine that you have the same hand and lead problem, but the auction went 1N 2C 2S 2N 3N

Now, it is true that a spade lead may work well on the second hand, but everyone and their dog...and the janitor....is leading a heart on the second hand.

When responder has no interest in a major, and the game values are tight (because responder has only invitational values) it makes no sense for the declaring side to tell opening leader whether he has a major and which one he has. I have discussed this with some very fine players, and the consensus is that concealing opener's majors is worth about half a trick on average.

[Tramticket]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for setting this out. May I ask some questions:

Both majors
I have not used Smolen (I don't think that it is common in the UK).
As I understand it, Smolen is used to show 5-4 in the majors (Game Forcing?) and you also have the 3♦/3♠ responses to show 5-5 (Inv/GF). How would you use the sequences 1NT, 2♦, 2♥, 2♠ (Inv with 5-4? 6-4? or some artificial use? - years ago I used to play this sequence as the range ask) and 1NT, 2♥; 2♠, 3♥ (We would normally play as 5-4 GF, would this also now be invitational? Or 6-4? Or?).

Also, since we play a weak NT, is there any real advantage in using Smolen to make the opener declarer?

Texas Transfers
I am interested that you describe the 4♠ response to 1NT as "in theory to play but hasn't happened yet"! Again, in a weak NT context, we find it advantageous to be able to place a 4♥/4♠ contract in either hand depending upon tenaces etc. For this reason we play 4♥/4♠ as natural and use Jacoby transfers if we want to place opener as declarer.

I am considering South-African Texas as an alternative (we don't use Gerber). What are your views?

Single-suited club hands
it seems that the only option with a club suit is to use the range ask? Are there any continuations that allow exploration for 3NT/5♣/6♣ after the range ask? Or is this the price used for using 2♠ for multiple hand types?

How do you play Stayman followed by 3m? does this show 5+m/4M?

CONFI
I've just Googled this since I'd never heard of it. Still trying to get my head around this.

Is the sequence 1NT-4NT undefined in your methods?

[mikeh]

 Tramticket, on 2019-February-22, 04:26, said:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for setting this out. May I ask some questions:

Both majors
I have not used Smolen (I don't think that it is common in the UK).
As I understand it, Smolen is used to show 5-4 in the majors (Game Forcing?) and you also have the 3♦/3♠ responses to show 5-5 (Inv/GF). How would you use the sequences 1NT, 2♦, 2♥, 2♠ (Inv with 5-4? 6-4? or some artificial use? - years ago I used to play this sequence as the range ask) and 1NT, 2♥; 2♠, 3♥ (We would normally play as 5-4 GF, would this also now be invitational? Or 6-4? Or?).

Also, since we play a weak NT, is there any real advantage in using Smolen to make the opener declarer?

Texas Transfers
I am interested that you describe the 4♠ response to 1NT as "in theory to play but hasn't happened yet"! Again, in a weak NT context, we find it advantageous to be able to place a 4♥/4♠ contract in either hand depending upon tenaces etc. For this reason we play 4♥/4♠ as natural and use Jacoby transfers if we want to place opener as declarer.

I am considering South-African Texas as an alternative (we don't use Gerber). What are your views?

Single-suited club hands
it seems that the only option with a club suit is to use the range ask? Are there any continuations that allow exploration for 3NT/5♣/6♣ after the range ask? Or is this the price used for using 2♠ for multiple hand types?

How do you play Stayman followed by 3m? does this show 5+m/4M?

CONFI
I've just Googled this since I'd never heard of it. Still trying to get my head around this.

Is the sequence 1NT-4NT undefined in your methods?

Smolen: one can play smolen with 6-4 as well. 1N 2C 2D 3S 3N 4D is a transfer to 4H, with 6H and 4S. Note the memory load, especially with 1N 2C 2D 3H 3N 4H, being spades.

Smolen is gf. It is possible to play 1N 2C 2D 2M as invitational smolen, if that fits your methods, but I don't use it. I did play it once, but prefer garbage stayman, especially in a weak notrump method. In addition, right now I play retransfers after jacoby, which means we have to use 1N 2C 2Red 2S as 5 spades, invitational values. 1N 2H 2S 2N is a club transfer.


I think smolen can be valuable in a weak notrump context, but only if one uses transfer responses. My preference, and it is a close decision, is to use forcing stayman. I have previously posted my preferred method, which involves opener (in essence) transferring. So 1N 2D 2H denies hearts, while 2S would deny spades and promise hearts. With both majors, opener bids 3D. There is more to it, but it is s very powerful approach. If I was limited to old-fashioned forcing stayman, I'd use transfers, and now smolen would fit in. Right-siding is useful but not a prime consideration. Any transfer method, including smolen, has the primary feature being that responder can show an aspect of his hand and be assured of another chance to bid, hence can have a very wide range of values.


As for Texas, in one partnership, that got as far as playing in the BB, we played South African Texas, to allow responder to simply bid 4M. We played 10-12 nv in 1st and 2nd seat, which was one factor. However, we had very different response structures to the 2 1N openings, including a relay method over the strong. We didn't need gerber since the relay method allowed for asking for controls (indeed, it could, on some hands, find out shape, controls, specific Queens and specifc Jacks...but Jacks couldn't be shown below at least the 5-level. We once stayed out of a 37 hcp grand that had zero play because we had a 4-3 club fit missing the QJ and only 10 tricks outside the suit and no squeeze, which we could tell in the auction). Absent relay, I'd want to keep gerber. it is rare but, when it comes up, very valuable.

As for the club hands, one can simply use 2S as range-ask or clubs. Now, after opener bids either 2N or 3C, 3 of a new suit by responder shows clubs, is gf, and shows shortness in the suit. We have chosen to incorporate two other rare but powerful hand-types into 2S, but one need not do so. There is always a cost to anything in bridge bidding theory. Even stayman has a cost: one cannot get out in 2C....a cost that many don't even know exists and which all of us would think to be so insignificant that we are happy to incur it. For us, if we have clubs and forcing values, we either bid 3N after opener's response to 2S or we have to bid 4C...natural and forcing. Note that responder knows by then whether opener has a max or min 1N. We've had the 2D confi come up several times: we've never had 4C or 3M arise. I rarely play: I am playing in this partnership tomorrow for the first time since we played in the Canadian Seniors Trials last May, and that was the first time I had played in almost a year:) So don't read too much into my not having seen these sequences come up.


Stayman followed by 3m shows 5+ in the suit: a transfer into a minor promises at least 6. If one has a 6 card minor and uses stayman one HAS to have a major. otherwise, say, 1N 2C 2S 3D shows 5+ diamonds but is ambiguous on hearts. It is forcing.


1N 4N: we don't use it. We really can't find a use for it. One nice thing about confi is that on occasion one can stop in 3N when natural bidders have to play 4N. Now, it is rare, to the point that I can't recall seeing it, but 1N 4N might fail, while 3N is cold off the top. If that were the prime advantage, I wouldn't bother. However, when one is on the borderline of slam, finding a 4-4 minor suit fit may make all the difference, and most people play 1N 4N 5m as a 5+ suit, and can't find 4-4 fits. Confi has opener show controls as the first step and then, if responder is satisfied that they have 10+ controls, the partners begin bidding 4 card suits up the line until either no fit is found or a suit is raised. The idea is the same as Baron.

I just noted: I missed your question about 1N 2D 2H 2S: we play that 2S is a strong slam try in hearts: 6+ hearts and strong, as opposed to mild, slam interest. While some of those hands can be put into texas, we prefer not to use texas and then move unless we hold controls, (including shortness) in all the side suits. So with some 6322 hand, with say Qx or worse in a suit, we'd go through the transfer then cheapest other major (hence 1N 2H 2S 3H)

Whether this approach meshes with weak notrump methods isn't entirely clear. I think it does, but I'd prefer to be playing my pet 2D method (which I did not invent: Gord McOrmond was, in my view, the best player in Canada while (but not because) I had the privilege of playing with him, and he was a genius at system design).

I hope that answers the questions:)

[kuhchung]

 mikeh, on 2019-February-22, 11:04, said:

Smolen: one can play smolen with 6-4 as well. 1N 2C 2D 3S 3N 4D is a transfer to 4H, with 6H and 4S. Note the memory load, especially with 1N 2C 2D 3H 3N 4H, being spades.

Wait what? This sounds like 4531 to me. With 64 you just stayman then texas.

[apollo1201]

Thanks *a lot* Mikeh with this structure. I’ll have to twist it a bit before torturing partner😉

[Tramticket]

 mikeh, on 2019-February-22, 11:04, said:

I hope that answers the questions:)

It certainly does. Thank you.

I will try and digest and see what appetite partner has for changes. I think that the 2S as range-ask or clubs will be a big improvement and the first one to add. We could also quickly incorpirate S-A Texas as it uses two bids that are currently idle.

Thanks again for your time and trouble.

[pescetom]

 mikeh, on 2019-February-22, 11:04, said:

I hope that answers the questions:)

It's interesting but I'm not sure what you do when you have long clubs (game force or better) and no diamonds?

[pescetom]

 mikeh, on 2019-February-22, 11:04, said:

As for the club hands, one can simply use 2S as range-ask or clubs. Now, after opener bids either 2N or 3C, 3 of a new suit by responder shows clubs, is gf, and shows shortness in the suit. We have chosen to incorporate two other rare but powerful hand-types into 2S, but one need not do so. There is always a cost to anything in bridge bidding theory. Even stayman has a cost: one cannot get out in 2C....a cost that many don't even know exists and which all of us would think to be so insignificant that we are happy to incur it. For us, if we have clubs and forcing values, we either bid 3N after opener's response to 2S or we have to bid 4C...natural and forcing. Note that responder knows by then whether opener has a max or min 1N. We've had the 2D confi come up several times: we've never had 4C or 3M arise.

I do prefer this idea of a simple range/ask or clubs - I imagine that after opener bids 2N a 3C response is natural non-forcing and that after responder's suit showing shortness a bid of 3NT by opener shows dislike of the transfer and 4C a like.
That would be a neat replacement for our current 2S as a simple transfer for clubs, over which 2NT by opener is a like for the transfer and 3C a dislike, with a new suit now being a splinter in either case and 3NT over 2NT being a signoff.