[rmnka447]

I have absolutely no problem with a 2 ♣ opening on this hand as it is a 3 loser hand.

Under the agreements in place, where a second negative is available, it's worthwhile to use 2 NT as an undefined positive showing 5-20 value and no other particular better bid/feature to show. Since 3 ♣ in this context is the second negative, then opener should take into account that the 2 NT bid might include a positive hand with a ♣ suit. Using 2 NT in this manner provides a way to confirm that game and possibly slam are still targets while saving bidding space and letting the strong hand to continue telling its story.

Opener knows several things about responder's hand. Responder doesn't have a decent 5+ ♠ suit else 2 ♠ would be bid. Responder probably doesn't have a ♥ fit else some raise could have been made. Responder doesn't have a decent 5+ ♦ suit else 3 ♦ was a possibility.

5 ♦ by responder is a signoff showing no slam interest. 4 ♦ would be forward going slam positive. The alternative bid to 5 ♦ might be 3 ♥ which would be made presumably with a doubleton. Then the issue would be what would 3 ♠ by opener show? Would it be the exact hand shown here? Or, might it be something like ♠ AQx ♥ AKQJx ♠ AKxx ♣ x looking for 3 NT? I'm not sure I'd have good answers to those questions.

Anyhow, 6 ♦ is a shot that luckily finds responder with a stiff ♠.

I'm not sure that I wouldn't bid 3 ♣ negative with the responding hand and make a more forward going over opener's next bid.

[mr1303_2]

If you start with 1H, would you not bid 3D with a good looking 14/15 count with 5-5 in the reds?

Something like x AKxxx KQxxx Kx

In which case after 1H (2S) P P 3D P I think the North hand has an easy pass?

[Vampyr]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-August-02, 14:36, said:

Then partner will have a diamond fit, you rebid 3♦ over 2♠, then when partner bids 3♥ you bid 3♠ which should be natural here as 3♥ can be very false preference.

I like this. You can show all three suits at a low level. I respect mikeh as a player but will never switch from Kokish.

[mikeh]

 Vampyr, on 2018-August-02, 20:33, said:

I like this. You can show all three suits at a low level. I respect mikeh as a player but will never switch from Kokish.

I ought to have specified that I was writing within the context of my earlier posts where, iirc, I said that I use 2H immediate 2nd negative. In that context, opposite the proposed xxxx xxx xxx xxx, I have to bid 3H over the 2H response. Now it is impossible to find 4S

Btw, I am a big beleiver in kokish, but feel it works best in the context of 2H negative. For those who play cheaper minor second negative, and thus respond 2D with a wide range of hands, including very weak ones, when do you slow down after opener rebids 2H?

I think it very poor bridge to have a kokish sequence to, say, 3S and never have had responder say anything at all about size or shape. When I have a kokish sequence, responder has already promised game force responding values

[Tramticket]

My post yesterday was not very well thought out.

 rhm, on 2018-August-02, 09:47, said:

What is marginal about this hand escapes me.

Rainer Herrmann

Yes, of course this is a very strong hand. I don't disagree.

My point was that it can often be difficult to find your best fit on three-suited hands if you start at the two level. A 1♥ opening runs a small risk that you will be left to play the this contract. Holding a 21-point hand, there are 19 points available and if partner doesn't have the values to respond there is a good chance that an opponent will keep the auction alive, making a 1♥ opening relatively safe. If the hand contained more HCP, there would be a greater risk that the auction would be passed out, since it is more likely that partner and the opponents would not have the values to compete. When I said "marginal" I should probably have uased the term "low HCP".

 mikeh, on 2018-August-02, 08:52, said:

After partner's predictable 3C, a cuebid by us is a strong action in support of clubs! If we want to bid diamonds naturally, we have to do it over 3C.

After we have bid 3S and partner bids 4C, 4D is a cuebid in support of clubs.

You are clearly correct Mike. A re-opening double followed by 3♦ over the predictable 3♣ is more sensible.

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2018-August-02, 22:52, said:

I think it very poor bridge to have a kokish sequence to, say, 3S and never have had responder say anything at all about size or shape. When I have a kokish sequence, responder has already promised game force responding values

Many people over here play that any sequence where opener doesn't rebid NT is GF, so this is a non issue, you're going to game anyway

[Stephen Tu]

 mikeh, on 2018-August-02, 22:52, said:

Btw, I am a big beleiver in kokish, but feel it works best in the context of 2H negative.

Weird to me. Isn't the main reason Kokish was developed to give a shapely bust responder opposite the big balanced hand ability to explore for suit fit at 3 level? Now you can't do it after 2c-2H?

Quote

For those who play cheaper minor second negative, and thus respond 2D with a wide range of hands, including very weak ones, when do you slow down after opener rebids 2H?

For me, good positive hands have been eliminated by failure to bid 2c-2h (artificial positive, no suit you want to show, slammish, 5+ 3/2/1 points A =3), and some good semi-positive heart raises are taken out by failure to break the relay (3c+ after 2c-2d-2h!-). So now, after 2c-2d-2h-2s, you can essentially only stop short of game with one suited hearts, if you do the switch with 3c= 1 suiter, then 3d 2nd neg. Or I suppose you can play natural rebids and 3H = I only have 9 tricks, you can pass with nothing. Over 2 suited bids, if responder just raises to game opener just doesn't assume much from failure to do something positive earlier.

(It's not like 2h double neg really allows you to stop short of game on 2 suited heart auctions either)

[nullve]

 mikeh, on 2018-August-02, 22:52, said:

Btw, I am a big beleiver in kokish, but feel it works best in the context of 2H negative. For those who play cheaper minor second negative, and thus respond 2D with a wide range of hands, including very weak ones, when do you slow down after opener rebids 2H?

I think it very poor bridge to have a kokish sequence to, say, 3S and never have had responder say anything at all about size or shape. When I have a kokish sequence, responder has already promised game force responding values

If Opener has 4540 shape, then he's about 40 times as likely to have 22 hcp as 26 hcp. Similar results hold when Opener has other unbalanced unbalanced shapes, so I think it makes sense to pretend the 2♣ Opener is highly limited. But if Opener is highly limited, then there's little reason for Responder to limit his hand with either a negative 2♥ response or a second negative.

[mikeh]

 nullve, on 2018-August-03, 06:35, said:

If Opener has 4540 shape, then he's about 40 times as likely to have 22 hcp as 26 hcp. Similar results hold when Opener has other unbalanced unbalanced shapes, so I think it makes sense to pretend the 2♣ Opener is highly limited. But if Opener is highly limited, then there's little reason for Responder to limit his hand with either a negative 2♥ response or a second negative.

Hmmm.....I wonder how responder knows that opener is 4540 at the time he responds to 2C or, indeed, at any time thereafter? Does opener hold his cards in a special way? Or do we design our system so as to ensure the loss of double-digit swings whenever opener is both unbalanced and strong?

[mikeh]

 Stephen Tu, on 2018-August-03, 05:50, said:

Weird to me. Isn't the main reason Kokish was developed to give a shapely bust responder opposite the big balanced hand ability to explore for suit fit at 3 level? Now you can't do it after 2c-2H?


For me, good positive hands have been eliminated by failure to bid 2c-2h (artificial positive, no suit you want to show, slammish, 5+ 3/2/1 points A =3), and some good semi-positive heart raises are taken out by failure to break the relay (3c+ after 2c-2d-2h!-). So now, after 2c-2d-2h-2s, you can essentially only stop short of game with one suited hearts, if you do the switch with 3c= 1 suiter, then 3d 2nd neg. Or I suppose you can play natural rebids and 3H = I only have 9 tricks, you can pass with nothing. Over 2 suited bids, if responder just raises to game opener just doesn't assume much from failure to do something positive earlier.

(It's not like 2h double neg really allows you to stop short of game on 2 suited heart auctions either)

Hi Stephen

It is my understanding that the main reason for kokish was the desire to show different notrump ranges. The ability to show different heart hands was a happy side effect. Note that balanced hands are significantly more frequent

[nullve]

 mikeh, on 2018-August-03, 06:44, said:

Hmmm.....I wonder how responder knows that opener is 4540 at the time he responds to 2C or, indeed, at any time thereafter? Does opener hold his cards in a special way? Or do we design our system so as to ensure the loss of double-digit swings whenever opener is both unbalanced and strong?

Sorry, I meant to say that the 2♣ openng can be treated as highly limited if unbalanced. So over 2♣-2♦, something like

2♣-2♦; ?:

2♥ = Kokish: "22-25, 5+ H, unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"
...2♠ = waiting
......2N = "20-22 BAL"
......3♣+ = "5+ H, unBAL, NAT"
...(...)
2♠ = "22-25, 5+ S, unBAL"
2N = "26+ BAL"
3♣ = "22-25, 5+ C, unBAL"
3♦+ = "22-25, 5+ D, unBAL".

Of course, the "22-25" range must be taken with a grain of salt, just like the "11-15" openng range in Precision, for example.

[Vampyr]

 Cyberyeti, on 2018-August-03, 05:28, said:

Many people over here play that any sequence where opener doesn't rebid NT is GF, so this is a non issue, you're going to game anyway

Yes. And when playing Kokish with a balanced 20-21 the 2♣ bid is not underused. The 22-24 2NT opening is though!

[mikeh]

 nullve, on 2018-August-03, 08:34, said:

Sorry, I meant to say that the 2♣ openng can be treated as highly limited if unbalanced. So over 2♣-2♦, something like

2♣-2♦; ?:

2♥ = Kokish: "22-25, 5+ H, unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"
...2♠ = waiting
......2N = "20-22 BAL"
......3♣+ = "5+ H, unBAL, NAT"
...(...)
2♠ = "22-25, 5+ S, unBAL"
2N = "26+ BAL"
3♣ = "22-25, 5+ C, unBAL"
3♦+ = "22-25, 5+ D, unBAL".

Of course, the "22-25" range must be taken with a grain of salt, just like the "11-15" openng range in Precision, for example.

Call me old-fashioned, but I like a notrump structure in my system that is built on narrow ranges.

Thus 1x then 1N is 11-13

1N 14-16

1x the 2N 17-19. Note that I play T-walsh and auctions that begin 1C 1red(transfer) 1N show 17-19, which allows for the 3 card range more efficiently than when we have to jump to 2N. We open 1C on 4=4=3=2 and on most 3=3=4=3 hands, so this sequence is fairly common


of course, this is easy to adapt to playing a 15-17 notrump opening bid

2N is 20-21. Note that we upgrade more than we downgrade

2C then 2N 22-23

2C then, over 2D, 2H then 2N: 24-25

2C 2D 3N 26-7

2C kokish then 3N 28-29 and so on

I think that the narrower the range on notrump, the better defined one's auctions can be. Most good pairs have great methods over 1N opening, and a good 2-way nmf structure works wonders over 1N rebids. Many pairs struggle with 2N openings, including 2C then notrump, but it is possible to design methods that work well...the main issue being that the sequences for uncommon hands tend to get forgotten easily since the auction rarely arises.

I think the notion of opening 2C with 20-21 and 2N with 22-24 is weird. Opponents are far, far more likely to interfere over your 2C opening than your 2N (regardless of point range) opening...I have very, very rarely seen anyone bid over 2N, but many times over 2C. No matter how good your methods, I am sure that your unobstructed bidding is better than your contested bidding, so it makes sense to structure your methods to minimize interference. You will hold many more 20-21 openings than 22-24, so it makes sense to open 2N with the weaker hand.

[RD350LC]

 bilalz, on 2018-August-02, 05:31, said:

In my opinion the bidding from North was quite ok. 3H from North would depend on partnership agreement but I would also bid 5D to show my 4 diamonds and a hand with no help in case opener is searching for slam. The 6d from south was a pure guess and risky but hardly the worst bid ever. I would pass 5D as partner knows about my strength and has chosen this bid (4d was available as any sort of slam try in diamonds).

I tend to agree completely. It is unlikely that I would go 6 ♦, but I have seen worse.

[smerriman]

 Tramticket, on 2018-August-03, 01:16, said:

A 1♥ opening runs a small risk that you will be left to play the this contract. Holding a 21-point hand, there are 19 points available and if partner doesn't have the values to respond there is a good chance that an opponent will keep the auction alive, making a 1♥ opening relatively safe.

Anyone know the stats on this? I would agree if you were opening 1 of a minor - if partner can't respond, it's almost guaranteed someone will be able to overcall in a major.

Assume partner can't respond. Holding 4 spades yourself, it's unlikely anyone will be overcalling a spade, and you'd expect each opponent to have about 8-10 points. Unless I'm missing something, it seems you'll be passed out every time unless 4th seat manages to have good enough clubs and points to balance 2♣. Is that really a good chance / a small risk?

[nullve]

 mikeh, on 2018-August-03, 09:12, said:

I think the notion of opening 2C with 20-21 and 2N with 22-24 is weird. Opponents are far, far more likely to interfere over your 2C opening than your 2N (regardless of point range) opening...I have very, very rarely seen anyone bid over 2N, but many times over 2C. No matter how good your methods, I am sure that your unobstructed bidding is better than your contested bidding, so it makes sense to structure your methods to minimize interference. You will hold many more 20-21 openings than 22-24, so it makes sense to open 2N with the weaker hand.

There's more space to handle 20-21 BAL after

2♣(20-21 BAL or GF)-(2♦/♥/♠)

than after

2N(20-21 BAL),

so it's not obvious to me that opening 2N would work better in this case.

For example, over 2♣-(2♥) one could play

P = NF (Opener may pass with 20-21 BAL and 3+ H)
X = takeout (also on some GF hands with 4+ S)
2♠+ = Rubensohl-ish, e.g.:
2♠ = NF, 5+ S
3m-1 = F1, 5+ m
3♦ = GF, 4 S, unsuitable for X
3♥ = GF, 5+ S, unsuitable for X
(...)

and thus be able stop in 2♠ and 3m oppsosite 20-21 BAL, which is impossible after a 20-21 2N. The structure should work reasonably well also opposite a GF Opener.

[kuhchung]

I was playing a strong club, and at the time, we weren't opening 2N on 20-21 bal. I picked up 20, opened 1C, and opps promptly found a profitable 4S save over our 4H.

I now play 20-21 2N.