[portia2]

what do i need for a positive response (ie. not PASS)? Can I use stayman with 3 points say with

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[LBengtsson]

portia2, on 2017-October-04, 03:53, said:

what do i need for a positive response (ie. not PASS)? Can I use stayman with 3 points say with

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2nt 20-22? 20+3=23 game no 20+4=24 game no 20+5=25 game50/50. best pass

[nullve]

LBengtsson, on 2017-October-04, 04:16, said:

2nt 20-22? 20+3=23 game no 20+4=24 game no 20+5=25 game50/50. best pass

I think you meant to write

Quote

2nt 20-22? 20+3=23 game no 21+3=24 game no 22+3=25 game50/50. best pass

[P_Marlowe]

Usually pass.

The cutoff for bidding game is 25HCP, but 25HCP will on average only produce a making game with 40%
probability, hence if you play 20-22, if you force to game with 3HCP, you will be quite often overboard.

Having a sure entry, i.e. a King will improve matters, 4432 shape will also help, since if one of your
4 carders hits one of openers 4 carders, the 4th card will be a trick.

Finally scoring matters, at MP (Pairs) it is usually better to lie low, at IMPs (Team) it is also not the
end of the world, if you miss a GREEN game, i.e. unless being Red at IMPs, the scoring also favors passing.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

You might consider using Stayman on a 4450 sub minimum hand, but what are you going to do on this if partner bids hearts ? Also 20-22 is 20 about 50% of the time and 22v quacky 3 often has no entry so doesn't play its full 25 points. Just pass

[NickRW]

As the others have said, you'll do best in the long run to pass. Change the spade jack to the queen and it is a harder problem. Change it to the King and you'll want to be in game (even though you'll sometimes be wrong)

[The_Badger]

Only thing I can add (that Cyberyeti touched on) of any benefit given this is on the Novice and Beginner forum is that all the commentators have indicated that Pass is the right bid, and I cannot agree more. But even if partner has a maximum no trump, and possibly let's say even 4♠s, it usually helps if the 25 points for game are not stacked mostly in one hand.

Obviously with a trump suit you might gain entries to the 3HCP dummy for finesses, etc., but if this was played in a 3NT contract, let's say, it's usually awkward making 9 tricks by leading away from the strong hand again and again. Obviously it all depends on how the cards fit.

There's a little story that I am sure a few bridge players know that goes with this, that one professional player started to double (at pairs matchpoints, I believe) a 2NT opener in 4th position as an opponent because he expected declarer with all 20-22 points to go down most of the time in 2NT. And a doubled contract going down would possibly give him a top. Unfortunately for him, he didn't reckon on one timid player who didn't raise 2NT to 3NT with 6HCPs (!) and declarer went on to make 2NT+2 doubled for a complete top.

[helene_t]

The simple and short answer is: Pass!

May depend on scoring. At IMPs I might Stayman. There's a slim chance that game makes, and 3NT-2 is not very different from 3NT-1.

If you decide to use Stayman, you need to decide what you do if partner bids 3♠ or 3♦. 3♠ I think I would raise at IMPs and pass at MPs. 3♦ I would pass in either case.

Some would say that you should bid more aggressively when vulnerable. This is only partly true. Vulnerable the difference between 3NT-2 and 2NT-1 (and between 3NT-1 and 2NT=) is bigger than when nonvulnerable so it is not clear if the vulnerability means anything for your decision.

An important point is that if you decide to use Stayman, it's not like you're promising partner more than three points. You are captain because partner described his hand accurately with his 2nt opening and left the decision to you. Stayman may be bad judgment but it's not a lie since you're not telling partner anything. You're just asking a question (do you have a 4-card major?) and then you're making a decision.

[LBengtsson]

nullve, on 2017-October-04, 04:33, said:

I think you meant to write

takk min feil

[msjennifer]

Garbage Stayman can’t be used over a 2NT opening.It will not serve any useful purpose at all.It will draw only partners wrath and a wry comment Hm.Some Stayman.!

[Cyberyeti]

msjennifer, on 2017-October-05, 23:44, said:

Garbage Stayman can’t be used over a 2NT opening.It will not serve any useful purpose at all.It will draw only partners wrath and a wry comment Hm.Some Stayman.!

It can providing you play straight stayman, wouldn't you bid 3♣ with xxxx, xxxx, xxxxx, void (there's a case for doing it on a 3460 yarborough too) if it was straight stayman you could pass his response, but most people play some form of 5 card or puppet stayman and then you can't.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-October-06, 04:01, said:

wouldn't you bid 3♣ with xxxx, xxxx, xxxxx, void

Not only would I bid Stayman, I would probably raise a major-suit response to four (particularly if vulerable at IMPs).

[msjennifer]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-October-06, 04:01, said:

It can providing you play straight stayman, wouldn't you bid 3♣ with xxxx, xxxx, xxxxx, void (there's a case for doing it on a 3460 yarborough too) if it was straight stayman you could pass his response, but most people play some form of 5 card or puppet stayman and then you can't.

I am sorry,but my answer to the question posed by giving an example hand is a firm NO.Someone may ask won’t you like to play in 3Diiamonds.? My answer is NO.What does one do if Partner replies 3D and one holds xxxx,xxxx,Void,xxxxx ? One would be playing in an awful 4/5 club contract .I personally, do not like to modify agreed requirements for any bid.Put the 3 HCP anywhere in your example hand and certainly the Stayman bid becomes a safer bid.

[Stephen Tu]

msjennifer, on 2017-October-06, 09:49, said:

I am sorry,but my answer to the question posed by giving an example hand is a firm NO.Someone may ask won’t you like to play in 3Diiamonds.? My answer is NO.What does one do if Partner replies 3D and one holds xxxx,xxxx,Void,xxxxx ? One would be playing in an awful 4/5 club contract

The people suggesting straight stayman (I don't think it's termed "garbage" in this context) are saying it's not a bad idea with short clubs. With short diamonds they simply aren't doing it since you don't have the option of passing 3D.

It's possible though that maybe with the short D it might be right to bid stayman anyway, getting to 3M when partner has a major and 3nt going down an extra trick vs. passers of 2nt if not. I'll have to run some simulations to see how often the gain vs. loss occurs in various scenarios.

[rmnka447]

Pass with this hand.

The only time I remember bidding game with less than about 4 points opposite a 20-21 2 NT was in a regional A/AX (top level) Swiss vulnerable with something like

♠ J109
♥ 109x
♦ J10xx
♣ J98

Since the scoring was IMPs, 35% probability vulnerable games should be bid. 3 NT seemed like it should be bid because of all the intermediate cards (10s,9s) which are very useful at NT. I think
it was a push against a very expert team.

With something like

♠ J64
♥ 943
♦ J852
♣ J75

a pass would be automatic.

[Cyberyeti]

msjennifer, on 2017-October-06, 09:49, said:

I am sorry,but my answer to the question posed by giving an example hand is a firm NO.Someone may ask won’t you like to play in 3Diiamonds.? My answer is NO.What does one do if Partner replies 3D and one holds xxxx,xxxx,Void,xxxxx ? One would be playing in an awful 4/5 club contract .I personally, do not like to modify agreed requirements for any bid.Put the 3 HCP anywhere in your example hand and certainly the Stayman bid becomes a safer bid.

Completely irrelevant, I specified 4450 not 4405, clearly you can't stayman on the latter.