[JLilly]

Quote

4) 3♣ showing 5-5 shape

On #4, would it be different if the partnership opens 1♦ with 4=5 in ♦=♣? I imagine not, since 3♦ would more useful to deny 5 clubs, and it removes 3♦ as a bid by responder to avoid rebidding their majors. So it could show 4=5 shape but the implications are the same. Thanks.

[Vampyr]

 rmnka447, on 2017-May-01, 13:19, said:

I'm not sure I agreed with everything Felicity said, but the rebids were spot on. Otherwise, it would have been a simple "+1 for FelicityR".

But still not enough to actually award the reputation instead of just saying it?

[wank]

The normal uk/us approach is that 2 spades on hand 1 shows a suitable doubleton because with 3 spades and an unbalanced minimum (the given hand type) you raise spades immediately. With 3514 and a hand too strong to raise to 2s you rebid 2c and jump to 3s next.

Wrt Robson you have to very careful. He pitches his stuff at a very low level. In his bridge club for example there are no stop cards and, I think (I've never been there myself), no alerts or announcements as you get in real bridge tournaments. Similarly he teaches that reverses don't show extras. This is hopeless from a theoretical viewpoint but, no doubt, good from his because it gets the punters playing (and paying).

[Zelandakh]

 Liversidge, on 2017-April-29, 01:09, said:

1. Bid responder's suit with 3 card support, or, if not...
2. Bid his own second suit with 5 cards, or, if not...
3. Bid his first suit with 6 cards, or, if not....
4. Bid No Trumps with a stopper in the bid suit, or, if not...

If none of the above you have to find a bid so..

5. Bid responder's suit with a good doubleton, or
6. Bid own first suit with a good 5 card suit.

How about this one?

---

Or this?

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I think general rules such as those from AR fall down if not taken into the context of how expensive each call is. 2NT over a 4SF 2♠ is quite different from 2NT over 2♣. The issue is complicated further if invitational hands are included as now we need not only buckets for minimum hands but also a way to show GF values in place of any non-forcing calls. That in turn leads to space-consuming bids being required on occasion, which is probably the main driving force behind the switch to exclusing the invitational hands here.

[Liversidge]

 wank, on 2017-May-05, 03:55, said:

Wrt Robson you have to very careful. He pitches his stuff at a very low level. In his bridge club ...... he teaches that reverses don't show extras. This is hopeless from a theoretical viewpoint but, no doubt, good from his because it gets the punters playing (and paying).

Don't know what he teaches at his club but his club website has sections ranging from "beginner" to "experienced" and in his book "Common Mistakes and How to Avoid Them" he gives an example of a reverse and writes "a good 15 points should be held".

[Lovera]

About 4th Suit Forcing(=FSF) priorities and useing conditions i've found these two YouTube videos :
1) https://youtu.be/w5r6FRePCyc
2) https://youtu.be/zmzPRbs0wrc
(Lovera)

[helene_t]

 Liversidge, on 2017-April-30, 03:04, said:

Marlowe has given one reason for having an agreement where FSF is always game forcing (except for the example you give) even if bid at the 2 level. I'd like to know if there are other reasons.

The main reason for playing 4sfg is that whenever either partner has a queen more than he had already promised, he can just make his normal bid without worrying if partner passes him in a partscore. Pairs who play 4sf not gf will sometimes have to jump to avoid that but you'd prefer jumps to be very specific, not just a queen extra

[Lovera]

Also can be interesting to have conditions about force and answers priorities when FSF is applied by opener.

[pescetom]

 FelicityR, on 2017-April-30, 01:28, said:

but (as far as I am aware, please correct me if i'm wrong) there is only one scenario where the 4th suit is not forcing to game: the auction 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠, and on this occasion the 1♠ bid is an actual suit.

I can think of some other scenarios depending on the conventions one plays.

Playing short club openings, there is no FSF possible when the auction opens 1♣ and there is ANY response at 1-level, because 2♣ is always available as a "new" suit: so not only is your example above true, but 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ is equally forcing one time and denies an actual suit of spades.

Playing 2/1 as unconditionally game forcing, I wouldn't call the fourth suit (as in question 3 above) FSF, as the game force was already in place and implications like fast arrivals may be different and remain in place.

Plus of course playing XYZ or similar a 2♣ or 2♦ fourth suit may have a meaning defined by the convention.

[Lovera]

I've found another site about FSF and when is used also by opener: http://www.pattayabr...orcing_main.htm