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Fuzzy Law 25 Situtation

#1 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2017-February-09, 18:43

Auction begins as follows




The 2 bid was on the table for a few pieces of a second or two, and as you reach to pull out the double card, East, picks the 2 bid card up leaving 1NT as this bid.


Is the fact that you were going to double 2 authorized information to partner (if you had doubled and THEN South realized he meant to bid 1NT not 2, it would be. But here, you had not actually made the takeout double you were intending hen the bid was changed.
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#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-February-09, 21:51

This one is easy. Aren't you still doubling?
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#3 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2017-February-10, 05:07

By the looks of it, there was no TD called, which means that you have forfeited your rights when you allowed the change. I know, nobody ever calls a TD in this situation, you simply say "Sorry" and pick up the 2.
You wrote that you reached for the double, not that you actually had pulled it from the box. So no call was made. But the change from the compartment with the double to that with the call you're going to make, gives some information which is UI to your partner. Should you have called the TD, that would not have been the case, Law25A4.
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#4 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-February-10, 05:31

Why is East changing South's bid? (I should try that tactic more often!)

I don't think Law 25A4 covers this: that's referring to if a call had been made by LHO and then withdrawn following the 25A correction. Here no call has yet been made by LHO. If partner saw you reaching for the X and then you did something else over the revised call of 1NT, I think the info that you would double 2C is unauthorised per 16A3 as there's no Law that seems to allow it to be considered authorised. Admittedly that seems a bit harsh given you are the NOS.

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#5 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2017-February-10, 10:44

View Postahydra, on 2017-February-10, 05:31, said:

I don't think Law 25A4 covers this
I wrote that Law25A4 could have played a role if the TD had been summoned. Now the information from the fact that you wanted to double 2 is OI to partner, otherwise it would have been AI.
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#6 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-10, 10:50

The double and pass cards are both in the same section of the bidding box. So unless it was very clear that you were starting to pull the double card, is there really any UI?

#7 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2017-February-10, 12:43

View Postbarmar, on 2017-February-10, 10:50, said:

The double and pass cards are both in the same section of the bidding box. So unless it was very clear that you were starting to pull the double card, is there really any UI?
Hardly. But it doesn't say in the OP that it was a pass that he wanted to pull out of the box instead.
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#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-February-10, 14:18

You know that you were reaching to pull the double card. Does your partner know that? How so?

IMO the act of changing a call does call attention to an irregularity. Therefore the director should be called at once(Law 9B1{a}). As to the question whether partner has UI, the TD needs to know exactly where your hand was when RHO changed his call. Also which call you now wish to make in view of RHO's change of call.
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#9 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-10, 18:36

View Postsanst, on 2017-February-10, 12:43, said:

Hardly. But it doesn't say in the OP that it was a pass that he wanted to pull out of the box instead.

What he "wanted" to pull out is irrelevant, states of mind are not UI (or AI, for that matter). There has to be some action that's visible to his partner to create UI. The OP says that he reached for the double card, it doesn't say he pulled it out of the box or even touched it. So unless there was some way for his partner to tell what card he wanted to pull, there's no UI.

Depending on how far his hand got before the other player interrupted him to change his call, his partner might be able to tell that he was going for the section with all the non-bid cards. So he might have UI that he was was going to make a call that's not a bid, but not be able to tell if it was Pass or Double.

#10 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-February-11, 02:28

View Postbarmar, on 2017-February-10, 10:50, said:

The double and pass cards are both in the same section of the bidding box.

That depends on the type of bidding box. The Danish ones that fold flat have them in an entirely different place.
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Posted 2017-February-11, 11:20

View Postgordontd, on 2017-February-11, 02:28, said:

That depends on the type of bidding box. The Danish ones that fold flat have them in an entirely different place.

Got a picture? I've never seen this design.

I've seen bidding boxes where the Stop and Alert cards are in separate places, like this

Posted Image

#12 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-February-11, 11:27

View Postbarmar, on 2017-February-11, 11:20, said:

Got a picture? I've never seen this design.

I've seen bidding boxes where the Stop and Alert cards are in separate places, like this

Posted Image

You are right. I was confused! :)
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