[benlessard]

1S-4D-??

4D is a splinter with knowned lenght (you know its singleton or void)
According to our agreements the 3 next cards after the keyc+Q is KH,KC,QH

My idea is that

4H=to play 4S or odd number of keycards
4S= last train or not sure.
4NT= even number of keys no Q of trumps
5C=even +Q of trumps denies K of clubs but show at least one side card.
5D=even + Q of trumps +KC denies KH
5H=even + 2round K no QH
5S=Even + Q, K+K+Q or none.

1S-2C (2C is not always a real suit)
2S-3S (3S deny a void)
4D--?? (4D is serious and deny a club control)


4H = to signoff in 4S or odd number of keyc
4S = last train, so club control no H control.
4NT= even no Q
5C = even +Q no Kc (but a club control and at least one of the 3 side kings)
5D = even +Q KC no KD
5H = even +Q + both minor K
5S = even + Q, all 3K or none.


As you guess its the same pattern with an odd number of keycards but you temporize with 4H.

1S--2C
2S--3S
4C--??

4D--D cue (no H cue, opposite of what i usually do but it work better with this method)
4H--no red cue or both red cue odd number of keycards
4S--no D cue, but H cue (last train)
4NT+ even number of keycards...


1S--2C
2S--3S
4C--4D
??

4H to signoff or odd number of keycards
4S last train so H control but not enough to ask for keycards
4NT+ even number of keycards and obv H control.

There is some cases where 4M-1 will allow a lead directing X but sometimes the wide open suit is showned anyway.

[Zelandakh]

In this sequence Opener is the less known hand so it makes sense for them to be asking rather than showing. One alternative to 4♥ LTTC is to continue with cue bids as normal and bump up RKCB a step:-

4♥ = DCB ♥
4♠ = decline slam try
4NT = DCB ♣
5♣ = RKCB

Whether this approach is a good idea is another matter entirely.

[benlessard]

I agree that all thing being equal its better if the hand that is unknown do the asking rather than showing however using 4NT to ask waste a tempo (one bidding space), furthermore using 3sequences for ace asking is wasteful.

for most players

4D-4NT
4D-4H-4NT
4D-4S-4NT

all these 3 sequences will be RKC wich cannot be an efficient method imo. Reversing captaincy can work as long as your able to transmit significantly more information.
Being able to show/deny all side kings at the 5 level is overkill compared to current methods, as long as the guy who show doesnt have a void this method do miracle in my test so far.

The other idea im trying to incorporate is when one player got 5 keycards (maybe 4 and control in all the side suit) he could possibly fake a 3NT frivolous and override the signoff (the 4M-1 bid).

[Zelandakh]

benlessard, on 2017-February-02, 11:20, said:

for most players

4D-4NT
4D-4H-4NT
4D-4S-4NT

all these 3 sequences will be RKC wich cannot be an efficient method imo. Reversing captaincy can work as long as your able to transmit significantly more information.

Many play the last sequence as XRKCB to save space over a direct 5♦. #2 is useful if 4♥ gave useful information (side suit controls or LTTC) and also represents the reverse captaincy you mention.

benlessard, on 2017-February-02, 11:20, said:

Being able to show/deny all side kings at the 5 level is overkill compared to current methods, as long as the guy who show doesnt have a void this method do miracle in my test so far.

Side voids are an issue in the direct key card show method too and I am still working out whether it is worth using one of the extra steps to show this. Luckily I do not have this issue here though as my 4♦ splinter specifically denies a void. You might also find value in splitting void and singleton splinters if you decide to adopt this kind of method.

benlessard, on 2017-February-02, 11:20, said:

The other idea im trying to incorporate is when one player got 5 keycards (maybe 4 and control in all the side suit) he could possibly fake a 3NT frivolous and override the signoff (the 4M-1 bid).

Bidding F3NT and then continuing over partner's sign off is definitely an underutilised sequence and available for something. At present I just use it for a hand where the F3NT bidder wanted to discover if partner had enough extras to accept a slam try but something more specific may well be a better choice.

[benlessard]

Many play the last sequence as XRKCB to save space over a direct 5♦

Its available but using 4D with a H control after 4C-4D or with a club control 4D direct got some risk since you cannot anticipate partner response.

1S-3S
4D-4H (4D serious, deny club control or void,4H is trying to signoff in 4S or odd number of keyc)
??

4NT+ = all D void and club control.



But if it goes

1S-3S
4D-4S (4D serious, deny club control or void,4S is last train & confirm club control but deny H)
??

now you still need a way to show the D void.

Of course if 4S is signoff and 4H is showign the club cue its the same thing.

Quote

You might also find value in splitting void and singleton splinters if you decide to adopt this kind of method.

Thats also what I do all splinter that come for standard splinter sequences are always show void in my regular partnership.

[Zelandakh]

To be honest I was thinking about 4♦ splinter with my comment about XRKCB. In a cue sequence, 4NT after 4♦ - 4♠ would have to be a hand that holds controls in all suits and wanted to find out specifically about a club control (std) or diamond control (DCB). The real question here is why bid a direct RKCB when they can go more slowly and find out additional information along the way? That suggests using 4NT in an auction like 1♠ - 3♠ for a different purpose, such as XRKCB in hearts, but I do not know anyone that does this. Most likely the additional benefit you get on perhaps 1-2 hands per year is not worth the cost of having to remember it.

[nullve]

Zelandakh, on 2017-February-04, 04:15, said:

That suggests using 4NT in an auction like 1♠ - 3♠ for a different purpose, such as XRKCB in hearts, but I do not know anyone that does this.

In many situations it's possible to play

4N = ♣ void or no void
...5♣ = ♣A
......5♦ = even # of KC
.........5♥ = ♠Q ask
............5♠ = no ♠Q
............5N+ = ♠Q
......5♥ = odd # of KC & no ♠Q
......5♠ = odd # of KC & ♠Q
......5N+ = *
...5♦ = no ♣A & even # of KC
......5♥ = ♠Q ask
.........5♠ = no ♠Q
.........5N+ = ♠Q
...5♥ = no ♣A & odd # of KC & no ♠Q
...5♠ = no ♣A & odd # of KC & ♠Q
...5N+ = *
5♣ = ♦ void
...5♦ = even # of KC outside ♦
......5♥ = ♠Q ask
.........5♠ = no ♠Q
.........5N+ = ♠Q
...5♥ = odd # of KC outside ♦ & no ♠Q
...5♠ = odd # of KC outside ♦ & ♠Q
...5N+ = *
5♦ = ♥ void & even # of KC
...5♥ = ♠Q ask
......5♠ = no ♠Q
......5N+ = ♠Q
5♥ = ♥ void & odd # of KC & no ♠Q
5♠ = ♥ void & odd # of KC & ♠Q
5N+ = *

* like 5♠, but thinks 2+ KC aren't missing and worried that p would misread 5♠

(The above is a special case of what I suggested here.)

[Phil]

Ben/Zel:

Dont think people arent reading this because they are.

I think this is a fascinating area of bidding.

Would you mind posting some example hands and also discuss what you think are the potential negatives?

Tyvm.

[benlessard]

Here is a hand were a reverse last train would have saved us.

---

1C was strong 15+
1D= ♥ or pts
1H = at least 3H 15-20
2S = GF 5+♣ & 4♥ ♦shortness.

here opener can bid 2NT to ask for exact shape
bid 3H to setup H (15-17)
but i choose 4C optionnal exclusion
15-17, void in clubs, 5+♥ not too much wasted values.

Opener should have at least 12 working pts to make a splinter in responder suit, from south POV the 5 level is safe, from north POV the 5 level is also safe so we are both to blame here
for missing this slam.

north worse hand should look something like
AQJ
Qxxxx
AKxxx

South worse hand is something like

Kxx
xxxx
Q
KQxxx

anyway with reverse last train and the skip turbo

south option over 4C

4D = to stop in 4H or odd number of keycards (♣A is excluded)
4H = last train
4S = even number of excl keycard no Q of trumps
4NT= even number of keycards Q of trumps no KS but either QS or JH (at least one of the next 2 cards)
5C = even number ♥Q (Qtrumps) + KS but no QS
5D = even number Q of trumps + ♠K&Q no ♥J
5H = even number Q of trumps, ♠KQ & ♥J or none of the 3.

its possible that instead of the ♥J you use this ask for extra tricks (♣A or singleton ♦K)

[Zelandakh]

benlessard, on 2017-February-24, 19:32, said:

Here is a hand were a reverse last train would have saved us.

How would this have helped you here? If South chose 4♥ over 4♣ and this was passed then they would presumably have chosen 4♦ in your new method instead and received 4♥ back, which would then be passed. If they instead chose 4♦ then the new rebid would be 4♥ showing exactly the same thing but being a step higher. This does not appear to be the hand to highlight any advantage!

[benlessard]

We play optionnal exclusion, return to trump suit = wasted values otherwise you reply keycard.

I agree that if you play something like

4D = last train,
4H = a lot of wasted values.
4S = 14
4NT= 30

responder should bid 4D and we would reach slam. However its understandable that when you show your keycards 14-30 etc its far from clear that you would want a "last train bid". Anyway I hope you still see why the "reverse train" is more often than not give you an extra bid that can be used as last train at no cost compared to using 4D as last train and 4H to stop.