[mike777]

I wanted to ask the forums some basic questions raised from Nigel's thread.

After 1d=(2c) overcall of pards 1d opener what does a negative double or a freebid show, hand type and strength range? Does the vul matter?

For example:

1d=(2c)=X or

1d=(2c)= 2h or 2s

thank you in advance for any responses.

[Stephen Tu]

Standard is free bid is F1, shows 5+ card suit, 10/11+ points, does not promise a rebid. Opener's rebid first suit/NT/single raise should be NF.

double shows roughly 8+ points, at least one unbid 4cd major, and ability to get somewhere sensible if partner bids a major he doesn't have, so usually one of:
- both majors (no problem opener bids either major at any level)
- 4+ support for opener's first suit
- stopper opp's suit and 10+ pts (rebid 2nt)
- some GF hand

So with only one major you need a bit more to double since if partner bids the wrong major you'll end up in 2nt/3d, or 3nt/4d if partner shows extras.

[Kaitlyn S]

mike777, on 2017-January-01, 13:31, said:

I wanted to ask the forums some basic questions raised from Nigel's thread.

After 1d=(2c) overcall of pards 1d opener what does a negative double or a freebid show, hand type and strength range? Does the vul matter?

For example:

1d=(2c)=X or

1d=(2c)= 2h or 2s

thank you in advance for any responses.

I don't think the answer is consistent worldwide. When I played a lot, the approximate minimums were:
1 level - 6 points
2C or 2D - 8 points
2H or 2S - 9 points
3 level - 10 points

Of course, these are flexible. If your rebid is awkward, you might want to have more, if your points are well placed, you would do it with less. For example, I doubt that many would quibble with a negative double on S-Axxx, H-10xxx, D-Kxxx, C-x after 1D (2C) even if their idea of the minimum is 9 points.

I believe the minimum for the new suit at the 2 level is about 10 with a five-card suit and a convenient rebid in most cases. This bid is forcing for one round only even if you play 2/1 game force. (People that play negative free bids would call these new suits non-forcing and would double or cuebid with all good hands I think - I've already told you more than I know about them.) While opener usually expects another call from responder after 1D (2C) 2H, opener's 3H and 2NT are both passable. (Some might say opener's 3D is passable but I think this makes it too difficult for opener when he wants to be in game opposite 10.)

This next part might be a bit advanced for this forum: I believe that the minimum for 1D (2C) 2H is slightly lower than the limit for 1S (P) 2H because over the opponent's pass, you can show some values by bidding 1NT, whereas in over the 2C overcall, you might have to bid 2H, make an odd shape negative double, and pass.

[Stephen Tu]

1♦-(2♣)-2♥-(p)-?

Kaitlyn S, on 2017-January-01, 14:12, said:

(Some might say opener's 3D is passable but I think this makes it too difficult for opener when he wants to be in game opposite 10.)

If 3♦ isn't passable what is opener supposed to do with minimum, long diamonds no heart fit, no club stop?

I don't see what's so hard for an opener with diamonds plus extras, just rebid 3♣, creates GF and you are one step lower. Or 3nt on some hands. Yes I suppose there are hands that are easier to bid if opener has more strong bids available, but I think it's a lot fewer than hands where opener has long diamonds and you just want to play in a 3♦ partial.

The hands where opener is strong with long diamonds, the vast majority is just a matter of finding if someone has a stopper to take a stab at 3nt.

[Kaitlyn S]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-January-01, 14:28, said:

1♦-(2♣)-2♥-(p)-?


If 3♦ isn't passable what is opener supposed to do with minimum, long diamonds no heart fit, no club stop?

I don't see what's so hard for an opener with diamonds plus extras, just rebid 3♣, creates GF and you are one step lower. Or 3nt on some hands. Yes I suppose there are hands that are easier to bid if opener has more strong bids available, but I think it's a lot fewer than hands where opener has long diamonds and you just want to play in a 3♦ partial.

The hands where opener is strong with long diamonds, the vast majority is just a matter of finding if someone has a stopper to take a stab at 3nt.

You could be right, however this situation seems quite similar to 1S P 2D P ? "If 2S isn't passable what is opener supposed to do with a minimum and six spades?" and most experts play this forcing.

EDIT to add: While it might be technically correct to play 1D (2C) 2H P 3D as nonforcing and 1S (P) 2D (P) 2S as forcing, this thread is in a B/N forum and expecting a B/N player to play those two auctions differently is a lot to ask, when what they need is some consistency to avoid accidents. You may say that the beginner should hear the technically best meaning for every possible auction he runs across and that we do the beginner a disservice by telling him to do something less technically correct and more consistent; I know a lot of people that say exactly that and I just have a philosophical difference with them. My feeling is that if a B/N player has to learn so many rules that don't make sense to him and gets confused and likely berated by partners when he does, he's not going to enjoy the game and bridge will lose yet another potential player to any of the thousands of other activities competing for that person's leisure time.

Granted, many B/N players are going to play both of those sequences nonforcing and so with their friends so all might be good. It's not that suboptimal, and probably doesn't need to be corrected until they gain much more experience. It's a far different situation than something like doubling and correcting with a minimum opening hand, a habit which is likely to cause them much pain.

[1eyedjack]

Kaitlyn S, on 2017-January-01, 15:27, said:

You could be right, however this situation seems quite similar to 1S P 2D P ? "If 2S isn't passable what is opener supposed to do with a minimum and six spades?" and most experts play this forcing.

In an uncontested auction you are afforded some luxuries, which usually allows for narrower definitions of bids, and one of which allows you a lower limit of a 2/1 response that permits relative safety in a promised rebid over 2S even where 2D might not have been GF. When it gets competitive, you have to relax constraints to fit possibilities, and the more destructive the competition the fewer bids you have available to describe what you might wish to describe, and the greater the risk of loss arising from failing to get that description across. So, while you could be right, I think that you are not comparing like with like. At the very least, the logical link between the two scenarios as justification for the earlier auction as forcing is suspect in my view.

[Stephen Tu]

Kaitlyn S, on 2017-January-01, 15:27, said:

You could be right, however this situation seems quite similar to 1S P 2D P ? "If 2S isn't passable what is opener supposed to do with a minimum and six spades?" and most experts play this forcing.

There's pretty huge differences between these two auctions:
1. uncontested 2/1 has substantially higher lower limit, and promises rebid, and most experts are playing 2/1 as a GF anyway. Even if not, you have a temporizing 1nt response that handles some of the lesser 2d calls.
2. Free bid on the other hand *does not* promise a rebid, and thus can be made on lesser values. There's pressure to get your suit in while you still can, before the opps maybe raise clubs.
3. There's way more room to stop in a partial after 1s-p-2d-p-2s if not playing 2/1 GF; conceivably you can still stop in 2nt/3d/3s depending on agreements. If 3d was forcing, the lowest NT bid is already game. If you end up stopping in 4d, you need essentially game values to make it but aren't getting any bonus so it's a bad position to be in.

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EDIT to add: While it might be technically correct to play 1D (2C) 2H P 3D as nonforcing and 1S (P) 2D (P) 2S as forcing, this thread is in a B/N forum and expecting a B/N player to play those two auctions differently is a lot to ask, when what they need is some consistency to avoid accidents.

I don't think it's too much to ask to treat contested auctions separately from uncontested auctions. They are just totally different animals, you have to teach them negative doubles and free bids anyway, followups to them are just way different. If you are trying to keep things simple and tell them treat contested same as uncontested then they'll end up making free bids on 4 cd suits and other weird things.

To me I would teach beginners 2/1GF from the beginning as Larry Cohen recommends, then the sequences are even more fundamentally different, there is no need to keep one the same as the other. 2/1 bids uncontested = GF so opener doesn't have to jump around to keep auction alive, 2/1 contested = not GF so opener *does* have to jump/cue/new suit to keep auction alive.

Then you also don't have problem of there being like half a dozen schemes of how to continue after uncontested 2/1 - non GF "standard", where random player think 2/1 doesn't always promise rebid, might pass you in rebid 2M or rebid 2nt, no one knows whether 2nt rebid show extra or not, etc.

Quote

You may say that the beginner should hear the technically best meaning for every possible auction he runs across

No, but they should be taught the standard meaning of auctions IMO.
What to avoid is:
- don't try teach them every convention under the sun, just the bare minimum they need to get by with their peers
- don't necessarily teach them every sequence, let them have accidents and wonder what they should bid with a certain hand, what a certain bid should mean, let them learn some things by experience/trial & error, come to you and ask what they should have done.

I don't believe in teaching beginners some completely non-standard way to bid just for "consistency" then tell them later "oh I lied it's really better to do this some other way". Otherwise they start playing with better players and pull some weird thing like 3d F on this sequence and better player thinks "WTF is this person being taught?" The strong bid is the cue bid. minimum available 3d rebid with a min and long suit NF is just totally natural.