[straube]

After a strong club relay auction you've shown a 1-2-3-7 pattern with 5-10 hcps and partner (who probably has 19+ hcps) has placed the contract in 3N.

Your hand is actually x xx xx KJ97xxxx so one more club and one less point the partner knows. You can pass 3N or show a stronger preference for
clubs by bidding 4C (non-forcing) or 5C. What do you do and why?

[wank]

if i don't bid 4c now, when will i ever bid 4c? if partner has 9 top ones and no club fit, that's just sad.

[jogs]

I totally confused. Why don't you just post the auction up to this point?
Also explain each bid which is artificial.

[straube]

 jogs, on 2015-December-03, 19:31, said:

I totally confused. Why don't you just post the auction up to this point?
Also explain each bid which is artificial.

1C-2C 16+.......unbalanced with clubs, 2-5 Queen points (A=3, K=2, Q-1) or roughly 5-10 hcps
2D-2H asks.....6+ clubs, no other suit
2S-2N asks.....higher shortness or balanced
3C-3S asks.....1237 or 1327
3N-..................placing the contract

[mike777]

 straube, on 2015-November-29, 00:27, said:

After a strong club relay auction you've shown a 1-2-3-7 pattern with 5-10 hcps and partner (who probably has 19+ hcps) has placed the contract in 3N.

Your hand is actually x xx xx KJ97xxxx so one more club and one less point the partner knows. You can pass 3N or show a stronger preference for
clubs by bidding 4C (non-forcing) or 5C. What do you do and why?

4c seems so clear given your system not sure what the question is.

I show 5-10 hcp...and longer clubs nonforcing over passing 3nt again I bid over 3nt

4c non forcing but we expect pard to bid again often...very often over 3nt you should add that to your explanation.

[straube]

ok, I understand that 5C isn't an option. I've still been a little leery about removing partner from 3N when I'm not sure we can even get to game. My thinking has been that just because I can describe my hand with a 4C bid doesn't mean I should do so; maybe the bid with this meaning shouldn't even be allowed!

It sounds like most recommend 4C and that describing this hand is worth missing the possibility of a making 3N. Thanks for your opinions, sounds like 4C is the right call.

[Zelandakh]

Would this be a good time to point out that there is enough space within SR to show a 1=2=2=8 hand below 3NT? Assuming standard symmetric (2♦ or 2♠+) there are 21 auctions (8+5+3+2+1+1+1). For a club one-suiter we have 16 basic hand patterns:

6322 - 3
6331 - 3
7222 - 1
7321 - 6
7330 - 3

...plus an additional 3 for 8221 making 19 in all. Of course you lose something by incorporating the extra 3 sequences but if you are going to go past 3NT when holding such a hand anyway you might be better off just accepting the trade off.

[sfi]

 straube, on 2015-November-29, 00:27, said:

After a strong club relay auction you've shown a 1-2-3-7 pattern with 5-10 hcps and partner (who probably has 19+ hcps) has placed the contract in 3N.

Your hand is actually x xx xx KJ97xxxx so one more club and one less point the partner knows. You can pass 3N or show a stronger preference for
clubs by bidding 4C (non-forcing) or 5C. What do you do and why?

For it to be right you need two extra tricks. I don't think that the extra club fills this role well enough to overrule partner here, so pass. In fact, I would expect 4C to be forward-going within context of what I've shown and I really don't want to suggest the 8th club makes slam a possibility on this hand.

[wank]

 sfi, on 2015-December-04, 05:21, said:

For it to be right you need two extra tricks. I don't think that the extra club fills this role well enough to overrule partner here, so pass.

you're assuming that partner knew our honour structure when he bid 3nt. he didn't. he had every right to expect some cards outside clubs. we don't have any. if he has a normal misfitting strong hand, he'll be very disappointed with what comes down in dummy.

[wank]

double post

[straube]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-December-04, 04:48, said:

Would this be a good time to point out that there is enough space within SR to show a 1=2=2=8 hand below 3NT? Assuming standard symmetric (2♦ or 2♠+) there are 21 auctions (8+5+3+2+1+1+1). For a club one-suiter we have 16 basic hand patterns:

6322 - 3
6331 - 3
7222 - 1
7321 - 6
7330 - 3

...plus an additional 3 for 8221 making 19 in all. Of course you lose something by incorporating the extra 3 sequences but if you are going to go past 3NT when holding such a hand anyway you might be better off just accepting the trade off.

How do you organize that? But we cannot have 5332 and are using 2N+ for the single-suited with 6.

[cherdano]

 straube, on 2015-November-29, 00:27, said:

After a strong club relay auction you've shown a 1-2-3-7 pattern with 5-10 hcps and partner (who probably has 19+ hcps) has placed the contract in 3N.

Your hand is actually x xx xx KJ97xxxx so one more club and one less point the partner knows. You can pass 3N or show a stronger preference for
clubs by bidding 4C (non-forcing) or 5C. What do you do and why?

I think you can't ask this question in a vacuum. Would partner typically break the relays with unbalanced hands? If partner is at least likely to be semi-balanced, i.e. not have club shortness, I think I would remove.

[straube]

 cherdano, on 2015-December-04, 08:51, said:

I think you can't ask this question in a vacuum. Would partner typically break the relays with unbalanced hands? If partner is at least likely to be semi-balanced, i.e. not have club shortness, I think I would remove.

Partner can't break relays and force. A relay break suggests a contract. So partner could be void clubs here.

[sfi]

 wank, on 2015-December-04, 07:48, said:

you're assuming that partner knew our honour structure when he bid 3nt. he didn't. he had every right to expect some cards outside clubs. we don't have any. if he has a normal misfitting strong hand, he'll be very disappointed with what comes down in dummy.

That's one of the common problems playing a relay system - it's hard to pinpoint strength. The one I play has lots of breaks into cooperative bidding where this might be a problem. Even though I notice this auction is the only way to game force here, I still don't think my hand is unusual enough to bid on.

[straube]

 sfi, on 2015-December-04, 14:37, said:

Even though I notice this auction is the only way to game force here, I still don't think my hand is unusual enough to bid on.

Glad to see that someone has taken this position. I was starting to think I'd posted a non-problem.

[awm]

I would pass; I think removing should show extras, and while the 8th club is nice the rock-bottom values suggest that if we had slam, partner would have asked.

Can 5c be making with 3nt down? Sure but this is a small target and I have no real indication that this is the case.

[wank]

of course there's a good argument for it being forcing, but it's not so that widens the target for bidding on. we can by making a classy 130 when everyone else is off in game. it could even be a nice swing just from saving unders. 3nt on this type of hand can be going for 300.

i'd say that playing 3NT on this hand is actually a narrow target - you need partner to have a club fit and there be 3 losers in 5c (partner's playing that too helpfully) or for partner to have 9 tricks outside clubs yet settled for 3NT rather than investigating slam, essentially playing our hand to be useless.

if you did pass on this hand, i'd say you should adopt AWM's suggestion and make 4C forcing. your hand's as bad for 3NT as it could be but you chose not to use the nf option when you had it available.

[straube]

 wank, on 2015-December-05, 00:15, said:

if you did pass on this hand, i'd say you should adopt AWM's suggestion and make 4C forcing. your hand's as bad for 3NT as it could be but you chose not to use the nf option when you had it available.

True.

[Mbodell]

I agree you should pass. I'd expect 4c to be something like x jx jxx AKJTxxx, or drop the outside j and add an 8th club.

If I were tosr relaying I'd show it by 3h (but partner wouldn't know my strength and actually I wouldn't relay as we need 2 kkontrols to relay).

[wank]

 Mbodell, on 2015-December-05, 03:27, said:

I agree you should pass. I'd expect 4c to be something like x jx jxx AKJTxxx, or drop the outside j and add an 8th club.

If I were tosr relaying I'd show it by 3h (but partner wouldn't know my strength and actually I wouldn't relay as we need 2 kkontrols to relay).

you're answering the question based on what you think the system should be, not based on what it actually is. 4C is specified as non-forcing.