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Jumping into the 4th suit Too risky undiscussed?

#1 User is offline   zenbiddist 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 17:07

1♦ / 1♥ /
1♠ / ?

3♣ is...? (We weren't playing XYZ)
3♣ should be?

Thanks
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#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 17:14

Looks like a splinter with no discussion.

As to what it should be, I don't know. There are probably better uses than splinter.
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#3 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 20:39

 zenbiddist, on 2015-June-27, 17:07, said:

Pard: You:
1D 1H
1S ?
3C is...? (We weren't playing XYZ)
3C should be?
Agree with Vampyr that 3♣ should be a splinter.
1♣ - 1♦ -;
1♥ - 2♠
Some partnerships define 2♠ in the above sequence as natural but I think it should be a splinter, too.
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#4 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 20:44

Invitational with long ♣ + the ♥ you've shown. Would 2♣ have been artificial and game forcing (FSF)?
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 22:50

 nige1, on 2015-June-27, 20:39, said:

Agree with Vampyr that 3♣ should be a splinter.


I didn't say it should be!

This:

 Mbodell, on 2015-June-27, 20:44, said:

Invitational with long ♣ + the ♥ you've shown. Would 2♣ have been artificial and game forcing (FSF)?


for example, might be better on a frequency basis.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#6 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2015-June-27, 23:57

Its either invitational or a weak hand with a lot of clubs. Best to discuss.
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#7 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 00:40

In standard im pretty sure its natural invitationnal.

If 3D/3H/3S are all inv I dont see why 3C would be different.


However after 1D-1H-1NT imo 3C is to play while 2C followed by 3C is GF. I think if you have 6C inv you have to settle for 2NT.

In french expert standard 2NT is a relay to 3C and its a part of Roudi or Xyz. 2C nmf doesnt promise a 5M.
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#8 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 01:12

It's not standard but I play that a jump in the fourth suit shows a 4-card raise of opener's second suit with a splinter in opener's first suit.
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 01:34

I expect the standard meaning varies by location. Like two other posters from the UK, I'd assume a splinter without discussion.
I think the best meaning is natural and game-forcing. That makes FSF auctions better, because a sequence like
1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♦-3♣
can just be a further request for information.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#10 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 03:00

We prefer the jump shows 5-5+ GF and have discovered it works well.
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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 04:22

 gnasher, on 2015-June-28, 01:34, said:

I expect the standard meaning varies by location. Like two other posters from the UK, I'd assume a splinter without discussion.
I think the best meaning is natural and game-forcing. That makes FSF auctions better, because a sequence like
1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♦-3♣
can just be a further request for information.


Would you use the same approach whatever the 4th suit was (assuming 1/1 and no reverse)?
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 05:41

 Vampyr, on 2015-June-28, 04:22, said:

Would you use the same approach whatever the 4th suit was (assuming 1/1 and no reverse)?


Yes. In fact, I'd use the same approach even if there were a 2/1, a reverse, or both.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is offline   zenbiddist 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 08:47

 Mbodell, on 2015-June-27, 20:44, said:

Invitational with long ♣ + the ♥ you've shown. Would 2♣ have been artificial and game forcing (FSF)?


2♣ would have been 4th suit GFing.

Thanks everyone, the variance of opinion is telling enough that it was too risky as an undiscussed bid!
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#14 User is offline   BudH 

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Posted 2015-June-28, 21:59

If 2C is artificial GF, then 3C is 5-5 invitational.
If 2C is one round artificial force, then 3C is 5-5 game force.
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#15 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2015-July-01, 19:34

Playing a majors-first style, this jump (and 1m-1M-1NT-3om) tends to be 6 of the minor and only 4 of the major. If I had 5-5 I would have FSFed/NMFed to look for the 5-3 fit.
And in my preferred style, all of these jumps are GF and all the invitations go through FSF/NMF - but I realize most of the 2/1 world does it the other way round.

Absent discussion I would play a random pickup partner for a strong 5-5, but I wouldn't expect a good random partner to spring it on me.
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#16 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-July-03, 15:24

I would guess 5-5 inv, but natural weak (4-6) and 5-5 strong are also both popular so I would never bid this undiscussed.

Never would have thought splinter, you brits are weirdos :P
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#17 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2015-July-03, 15:33

 PhantomSac, on 2015-July-03, 15:24, said:

I would guess 5-5 inv, but natural weak (4-6) and 5-5 strong are also both popular so I would never bid this undiscussed.

Never would have thought splinter, you brits are weirdos :P


Ha! Don't lump us all together! I also would never have thought splinter and play 5-5 inv in all my partnerships where I have discussed it.
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