[lifemonster]

xxxx
10xxx
Ax
AKx

Ax
AKQxx
KQJ
xxx

South North
1H 3H(or 2NT JFR,if you think AAK is too strong, but won't change much)
3S 4C
4D 5C(?)/5D(?)

The key of the hand, is that South has to know North has 5 minors cards. Both cuebid or Blackwood won't do, because the 3 small club is a serious negative sign, and South doesn't know the 3rd diamond can afford a pitch. North could be 3433 and the slam would have no play. So unless for some Moscito relayers or take a blind shot, naturally based system is not convincing.

[Cave_Draco]

Benj Acol with Albarran responses...

2C-3NT-4H-4NT-5C-6H, ;D.

[bearmum]

Precision bidding (as my P and I play it )
1C 1NT 2H 3H 3S 4C 4D 5C 6H 8)
N can afford to go past game as he has such great controls

[lifemonster]

Quote

Precision bidding (as my P and I play it )
1C 1NT 2H 3H 3S 4C 4D 5C 6H 8)
N can afford to go past game as he has such great controls

Then how would you bid the hand differently with
xxx
xxxx
Axx
AKx

[the hog]

The key to this, which I don't think anyone apart from the original poster has taken into account is the doubleton D enabling a C pitch. To be honest, unless you are playing a relay system and can find exact shape, I think any slam bid is a punt.

[luis]

Quote

xxxx
10xxx
Ax
AKx

Ax
AKQxx
KQJ
xxx

German-Moscito auction

1c (15+ any) 1h (4+ spades)
1s (relay) 1n (4+ hearts)
2c (relay) 2s (sp = he)
2n (relay) 3d (4-4-2-3)
3h (controls?) 4d (5)
4h (where?) 4s (no A or K of spades)
6h (tks!)

I'm sure my friend Ben might have a naturalistic auction using Spiderman-Keycard to find the Ax doubleton in diammonds :-))

[junyi_zhu]

using hinzhu raise:
1H 2S(game forcing raise, balanced or distributional with at least 16 HCP.
2N(balanced) 3C(relay)
3S(2-5-3-3) 4C(asking for range)
4H(18-19) 5C(cue, denies sp control)
5D(cue) 5H(nothing much)
6H(I have extra)

Quote

xxxx
10xxx
Ax
AKx

Ax
AKQxx
KQJ
xxx

South North
1H 3H(or 2NT JFR,if you think AAK is too strong, but won't change much)
3S 4C
4D 5C(?)/5D(?)

The key of the hand, is that South has to know North has 5 minors cards. Both cuebid or Blackwood won't do, because the 3 small club is a serious negative sign, and South doesn't know the 3rd diamond can afford a pitch. North could be 3433 and the slam would have no play. So unless for some Moscito relayers or take a blind shot, naturally based system is not convincing.

[Antoine Fourrière]

On a very personal and possibly defamatory Polish Club in tonight's version:
1C (clubs or bal, not 16-17) 1D (no 5CM, not 4h without 4s if 5-10)
1N (bal, 18-21) 2C (bal, 7+)
2H (20-21) 2N (slam relay)
3D (4h without 4d) 3H (relay)
4H (2533) 4S (asks for controls)
4N (6 controls - or less...) 6H

Some remarks:

A four-point range 1N rebid is more constructive than a two-point range 1N opening.

That hand seems worth a 2N opening in Standard.

Maybe the first step over the control ask for the 20-21 range should show only five controls (and four for 18-19, and three for 16-17...).

I know much more than in Standard, and much less than in a full relay system.

[lifemonster]

I still don't understand why so many people still focusing on who has extra, or who should do range checking, or who should upgrade the hand because of the "good points", or who can afford bypassing 4 level thus blah blah blah...

No, that's not the point. If you don't know partner has exactly 5 minor cards any slam is a blind guess. No matter how much you improve the way of major raises in natural based system it is just not convincing.

Apart from the 4333 hand I've shown, how about this?
xx
xxxx
Axx
AKxx

[Antoine Fourrière]

With your latter hand, it is enough to know that opener has also a doubleton spade to stay out of slam.

With a 3433 of 11 H, responder has no ruffing value, and shouldn't even try for slam.

Slam is on with
Ax
AKQxx
KQx
Qxx,
opposite
xx(x)
Txxx
Axx
AKx(x),
and there might even be a grand with clubs 3-3, but it is a perfecto.

True, slam is also good with
Ax
AKxxx
KQx
QJx,
opposite
xx
Txxx
Axx
AKxx

Here, responder's second four-card suit overcomes the lack of ruffing value.
The wrong doubleton is better than no doubleton at all.

And with
xxx
Txxx
Ax
AKxx
opposite 2533?

Ax
AKQxx
KQJ
xxxx
doesn't do the job.

But if opener has
Ax
AKQxx
Kxx
Qxx,
slam is on, with no need for the jack of clubs to discard a spade.

Now knowing about size, distribution and controls is not enough. German Moscito would do better (I don't know whether it would unearth the right jack for a small slam). Still, half knowledge is better than no knowledge, and only half knowledge can be implemented when you do not play a full relay system.

[junyi_zhu]

using hinzhu raise:
1H 2S(blanced GF raise or distributional raise with at least 16 HCP)
2N(5-3-3-2 or 5-4-2-2 minimum) 3C(relay)
3S(2-5-3-3) 4H(now we discover the "mirror distribution", there should
not be good slam chance even if partner has 18-19 HCP.

The shape checking allows responder to avoid bad slams when mirror distribution
is discovered. responder does need extra from opener to make a good slam.
So my sequence is convincing in my humble opinion. That's also the reason why we developed our 1H-2S, 1S-2NT raising structure to allow the responder to do
detailed shape checking. When both sides are balanced, it's usually critical to check for shapes to avoid overbidding with "mirror distributions".

Also, Sxxxx Hxxxx DAx CAKx is usually good enough to force to game, it's a matter of hand evaluation. Sxxx Hxxxx DAxx CAKx is not enough, because it has one more loser than the previous hand.

Quote

I still don't understand why so many people still focusing on who has extra, or who should do range checking, or who should upgrade the hand because of the "good points", or who can afford bypassing 4 level thus blah blah blah...

No, that's not the point. If you don't know partner has exactly 5 minor cards any slam is a blind guess. No matter how much you improve the way of major raises in natural based system it is just not convincing.

Apart from the 4333 hand I've shown, how about this?
xx
xxxx
Axx
AKxx

[inquiry]

Luis suggested I might be able to find an natural auction to bid the slam on this hand. The fact is, this hand is a good example for a relay system (there are other hands that show the disadvantage of relay systems). If I was going to bid this hand, I would use ultimate club (which has relays). The bidding would be....

xxxx
10xxx
Ax
AKx

Ax
AKQxx
KQJ
xxx

1C 1H 1C=17+, 1H = several good hand, if balnced 4-5 con
1S 1Nt 1S=relay, 1N=balanced hand specifically 5 controls
2C 2S 2C=relay, 2S = bare 5 controls (no Queen's)
2N 3C 2N=relay, 3C=any 4-4-3-2
3D 4C 3D=relay, 3C=4-4 in the majors
4D 4H 4D=relay, 4H=4-4-2-3
4S 4N 4S=start denial cuebidding, 4N=no S control or AK
6H

When 6H bid, opener knows parnter has....(could have a jack or two).

xxxx
xxxx
Ax
AKx

In natural, I don't know how to bid the slam with any certainty. As a rule, I would open south with 2NT, not that it helps much.

Ben

[lifemonster]

Hi Junyi:
I am sure that any gadget can be working provided right place at the right time . However, for this particular example, I think it makes more sense for the strong hand to be the relayer, hence the other side the relayee, because opener has clearer picture on the source of tricks.

xx
xxxx
Axx
AKxx

Ax
AKQxx
Kxx
QJx

When the raiser find out the opener is 18-19, 2533, should raiser stop because of the minimum count? Clearly, it'd better for responder to show the hand instead of asking. Say in this sequence
1H 2S
2N 3C
3S 4C
4H 5C(??)
After 4H responder still has to cuebid to "show", therefore, if you do it at 5 level after 2 rounds of pattern asking and range checking, why can't you do it earlier?

[junyi_zhu]

[quote author=lifemonster link=board=4;threadid=695;start=0#msg4301
For this hand, we usually open 2NT, because it contains a good 5 card suit and no wastage of HCP. Our 1H then 2NT sequence generally shows good 17 to normal 19. The problem is that it's usually much more difficult for the opener to ask for
shape and controls, because reponder's hand pattern is in a wide range. 1H 2S shows any balanced hands with 12 or more HCP and without reasonable 5 card suit or any distributional hands with at least 16 HCP. Also, we don't usually mind 5 level cuebidding which can often be the only right bid after pattern and range checking.

Also for your example, it was a perfect fit. I don't really mind missing this kind of
slams at all.
date=1057852438]
Hi Junyi:
I am sure that any gadget can be working provided right place at the right time . However, for this particular example, I think it makes more sense for the strong hand to be the relayer, hence the other side the relayee, because opener has clearer picture on the source of tricks.

xx
xxxx
Axx
AKxx

Ax
AKQxx
Kxx
QJx

When the raiser find out the opener is 18-19, 2533, should raiser stop because of the minimum count? Clearly, it'd better for responder to show the hand instead of asking. Say in this sequence
1H 2S
2N 3C
3S 4C
4H 5C(??)
After 4H responder still has to cuebid to "show", therefore, if you do it at 5 level after 2 rounds of pattern asking and range checking, why can't you do it earlier?
[quote][/quote]

[Free]

Hmmm, the system I play with my partner we can also find:

1C (F1) - 1H (Walsch)
2D (p has to bid 2H) - 2H (obligated)
2S (NT 18-20, 4+H) - 2NT (relay)
3C (5card H or 4card C) - 3D (relay)
3H (5 card H) - 3S (relay)
4D (2-5-3-3) - 4S (RKC H)
4NT (0/3) - 6H

A safe 6H

[BaldJean]

Hmm, where is the problem? 2NT-3C-3H-4C-4S-5D-5NT-6C-6H. Of course you have to open 2NT with 5 card major and 19-21, as we do.

[Cascade]

Quote

xxxx
10xxx
Ax
AKx

Ax
AKQxx
KQJ
xxx

South North
1H 3H(or 2NT JFR,if you think AAK is too strong, but won't change much)
3S 4C
4D 5C(?)/5D(?)

The key of the hand, is that South has to know North has 5 minors cards. Both cuebid or Blackwood won't do, because the 3 small club is a serious negative sign, and South doesn't know the 3rd diamond can afford a pitch. North could be 3433 and the slam would have no play. So unless for some Moscito relayers or take a blind shot, naturally based system is not convincing.

This is how my partnership would bid that hand:

1H 2S invite or better 'balancedish' with four hearts
2NT relay
3NT GF with 5 controls (A=2 K=1) we always upgrade A A K
4D any side queens?
4H no queens
4S anything else
5D doubleton diamond
?

now it is a guess

6H is good on the actual hand but would be poor opposite 3424 shape but it would also be good opposite 3523 which we would bid the same way. So I guess on balance we should bid 6H.

My alternative favourite system is symmetric relay ...

1C Strong
1NT Balanced
2C Relay
2H two suits same rank
2S relay
3D doubleton diamond so 4423
3H relay
4D five controls
6H easy :-)


Wayne

[Cascade]

Quote

The key to this, which I don't think anyone apart from the original poster has taken into account is the doubleton D enabling a C pitch. To be honest, unless you are playing a relay system and can find exact shape, I think any slam bid is a punt.

... and the trebleton club - see my other post in this thread 3424 would not be good enough.

Wayne

[mishovnbg]

NTC v. 2.50

xxxx
10xxx
Ax
AKx

Ax
AKQxx
KQJ
xxx

South North
1CL(1)-1NT(2)
2CL(3)-3NT(4)
4DI(5)-4HE(6)
4SP(7)-4NT(8)
5CL(9)-5HE(10)
6HE

Description:
1. 10-17HCP,nat/15-20hcp,bal
2. 6-12HCP,4+HE-4+SP
3. Relay, 14+HCP
4. (10)11-12HCP,4HE-4SP, DI stopper
5. NAB
6. 0/AK in SP
7. NAB
8. 0/AK in HE
9. NAB
10. A/K in DI, 0/AK in CL

Note: 6NT is impossible, because 1HCP max remain.

Now i will modify hand for minor fit - normally more difficulte to bid 8).

xxxx
Ax
AKx
10xxx

Ax
KQJ
xxx
AKQxx

South North
1CL(1)-1HE(2)
2CL(3)-3NT(4)
4CL(5)-4HE(6)
4SP(7)-4NT(8)
5DI(9)-5HE(10)
5SP(11)-6CL(12)
Pass

Description:
1. 10-17HCP,nat/15-20hcp,bal
2. 6-12/15+HCP,4+SP
3. Relay, 14+HCP
4. (10)11-12HCP,4SP, HE stopper
5. Relay for side suit
6. 4+CL
7. NAB ( 4NT will be sign off )
8. 0/AK in CL
9. NAB ( 5CL will be sign off )
10. 0/AK in SP
11. NAB
12. A/K in HE, 0/AK in DI

Note: Since CL suit, bidding is good, but not perfect

Misho