[Fluffy]

I've come recently with various cases of unseen lead directing doubles.

The 3 times it was opponents making a strong auction after a 1NT or 2NT opening/rebid and some player making a lead directing double that partner didn't see.

Can you make some emphasis on a double to force partner notice it? like saying Double while you make it?

Part of the blame for not seeing doubles is that pass and double have kind of similar shape, there is no way you wouldn't notice a 1 club bid instead of a pass, and this fact is suposedly not related to any bridge rule. Bidding boxes purposes where never something like that.


One of the cases was with screens, I had made the double during the cavendish, but after seeing the tray going to the other side I noticed that my bids weren't fully on that side, and I suspected partner would not see it. But by the time I wanted to do something about it the tray was back on my side with 2 more bids. Could I draw attention to this?

[Trinidad]

I think you could certainly ask the other side to hold the screen on their side and say you are calling the TD. Technically that is against most screen regulations, since no information is supposed to be exchanged across the screen, but I doubt that a TD (or opponent) will have a problem with that.

Rik

[gordontd]

Fluffy, on 2014-November-21, 06:51, said:

Can you make some emphasis on a double to force partner notice it? like saying Double while you make it?

L73A2

Quote

Calls and plays should be made without undue emphasis, mannerism or inflection, and without undue hesitation or haste.

[aguahombre]

Well, I don't understand the "same shape" part. A Double is the only red thing which gets shipped with the tray. 7(any) is also a similar shape.

However, it must be an infraction to not ensure that the tray is pulled far enough through for all calls to be visible...mildly interesting IMO whose responsibility that is; but, the person himself who didn't see a call for whatever reason has only himself to blame. (Falls under paying attention to the game?)

[Fluffy]

aguahombre, on 2014-November-21, 09:35, said:

Well, I don't understand the "same shape" part.

You might say same size rather. The real thing is this: on the 2 cases without screens this wouldn't had happened if:

-There were no bidding boxes in use.
-The double card was the same size of a 1 club bid.

Even if double was a quarter of a pass card it would probably not happen either.

[Fluffy]

gordontd, on 2014-November-21, 07:48, said:

L73A2

But according to some rules, you can announce the cards you are playing. Can you announce your calls?, this would be contradictory with the utility for bidding boxes.

[nige1]

Fluffy, on 2014-November-21, 06:51, said:

I've come recently with various cases of unseen lead directing doubles. The 3 times it was opponents making a strong auction after a 1NT or 2NT opening/rebid and some player making a lead directing double that partner didn't see. Can you make some emphasis on a double to force partner notice it? like saying Double while you make it? Part of the blame for not seeing doubles is that pass and double have kind of similar shape, there is no way you wouldn't notice a 1 club bid instead of a pass, and this fact is suposedly not related to any bridge rule. Bidding boxes purposes where never something like that. One of the cases was with screens, I had made the double during the cavendish, but after seeing the tray going to the other side I noticed that my bids weren't fully on that side, and I suspected partner would not see it. But by the time I wanted to do something about it the tray was back on my side with 2 more bids. Could I draw attention to this?

Do some red-green color-blind people have this problem? Would different shades or patterns help?

[blackshoe]

Fluffy, on 2014-November-21, 10:14, said:

But according to some rules, you can announce the cards you are playing. Can you announce your calls?, this would be contradictory with the utility for bidding boxes.

Contrary to the rules for their use, too.

Seems to me the idea behind bidding boxes is to eliminate UI problems from tone or wording or whatever. So no announcing of calls. OTOH, I've seen, where one player has vision problems, the other three using bidding boxes, but speaking their calls as they make them. This satisfies the "I don't want to have to remember the auction, I want to see it on the table" crowd, but I don't think it's proper. I think if you're not using boxes because somebody has a problem, then you are not using boxes and they should not even be on the table.

[barmar]

nige1, on 2014-November-21, 10:18, said:

Do some red-green color-blind people have this problem? Would different shades or patterns help?

I assume that color-blind people learn to look more carefully at the lettering, not just the shape.

And the shapes aren't quite the same: Pass has the tab in the middle, double and redouble have their tabs on the sides. Color-aware players probably aren't very sensitive to this, but I'll bet color-blind players do notice it. The brain is very good at adapting like this.

[aguahombre]

blackshoe, on 2014-November-21, 10:45, said:

Contrary to the rules for their use, too.

Seems to me the idea behind bidding boxes is to eliminate UI problems from tone or wording or whatever. So no announcing of calls. OTOH, I've seen, where one player has vision problems, the other three using bidding boxes, but speaking their calls as they make them. This satisfies the "I don't want to have to remember the auction, I want to see it on the table" crowd, but I don't think it's proper. I think if you're not using boxes because somebody has a problem, then you are not using boxes and they should not even be on the table.

We disagree on this. I fully support assistance to the handicapped by announcing calls; I do not support handicapping ourselves to achieve equity with the abilities of that person. Should we close our eyes and learn Braille also?

[barmar]

I'm with agua. I've never seen any sight-impaired player insist that everyone else be brought down to his level.

Blind players also have to memorize dummy's cards -- dummy names them as he's putting the dummy down. But we still leave dummy's cards on the table, so the other players can see them, they don't have to remember them.

[blackshoe]

aguahombre, on 2014-November-21, 10:58, said:

We disagree on this. I fully support assistance to the handicapped by announcing calls; I do not support handicapping ourselves to achieve equity with the abilities of that person. Should we close our eyes and learn Braille also?

That isn't the point. Read the bidding box regulation. IIRC, it says that the requirement to use bidding boxes may be ignored if a player at the table needs that because of a disability. Nothing in there about ignoring it for some but not others. And I really don't like "I have to have the bidding cards or I can't remember the auction!"

[Fluffy]

nige1, on 2014-November-21, 10:18, said:

Do some red-green color-blind people have this problem? Would different shades or patterns help?

Yes, I think some white stripes would definitely end the problem.

[mycroft]

Perhaps two white stripes, crossing each other? :-)

[Vampyr]

Fluffy, on 2014-November-21, 06:51, said:

Part of the blame for not seeing doubles is that pass and double have kind of similar shape, there is no way you wouldn't notice a 1 club bid instead of a pass, and this fact is suposedly not related to any bridge rule. Bidding boxes purposes where never something like that.

It seems to me that a double card is more similar in shape to a 1♣

mycroft, on 2014-November-21, 17:54, said:

Perhaps two white stripes, crossing each other? :-)

ROFLMAO

[aguahombre]

blackshoe, on 2014-November-21, 11:50, said:

That isn't the point. Read the bidding box regulation. IIRC, it says that the requirement to use bidding boxes may be ignored if a player at the table needs that because of a disability. Nothing in there about ignoring it for some but not others. And I really don't like "I have to have the bidding cards or I can't remember the auction!"

Have fun with one blind and one deaf at the table. Or, just accommodate the blind person with verbalization and don't screw with the bidding boxes for no reason. Whether you approve of people using the bid cards to see the auction in progress is mildly interesting; they are there, and we might as well keep them there.

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2014-November-21, 11:50, said:

That isn't the point. Read the bidding box regulation. IIRC, it says that the requirement to use bidding boxes may be ignored if a player at the table needs that because of a disability. Nothing in there about ignoring it for some but not others. And I really don't like "I have to have the bidding cards or I can't remember the auction!"

It says "may be", not "must be". So we can still use the bidding box for all the other players.

[campboy]

blackshoe, on 2014-November-21, 11:50, said:

That isn't the point. Read the bidding box regulation. IIRC, it says that the requirement to use bidding boxes may be ignored if a player at the table needs that because of a disability. Nothing in there about ignoring it for some but not others. And I really don't like "I have to have the bidding cards or I can't remember the auction!"

That's the ACBL regulation, I assume. FWIW the EBU bidding box regulation deals with this differently:

Quote

The opponents of any player unable to use a bidding box have the option to require that bidding boxes are used in addition to spoken bids, in which case the bidding box of the player unable to use it should be operated by one of the opponents.

[blackshoe]

Actually, now that I've gone back and read it again, the ACBL regulation is very specific on some questions, and typically vague to the point of uselessness on others, including this one. Here it is in its glory:

Quote

Any player has the right to use bidding boxes (assuming they are available) for any ACBL event in which they play if they are needed because of a hearing impairment. As a policy, we do not question players as to the details of a handicap when they state that one exists.

When bidding boxes are in use for this reason, no player has the right to refuse to play with them. Players who have a handicap which preclude their use will have a distinctive card. The card will be displayed on the table and read, “due to a physical or visual handicap, we are not using bidding boxes.”

I suppose this doesn't preclude one player not using, and the other three using, bidding boxes. Or any other combination. What do you do when there is a blind and a deaf player at the table? The blind player cannot use the boxes, obviously. On the other hand, he can't not use them, because the deaf player's requirement is absolute. The practical solution, of course, is for one of the opponents to put out the blind player's bidding cards for him. But the regulation doesn't cover it.

Oh, the first part of the regulation deals with general use:

Quote

USE OF BIDDING BOXES

1. Bidding boxes will be used in all events held at NABC’s except I/N events (0-500). Their use will be optional in I/N events.
2. Units and Districts are encouraged to use bidding boxes in their games.
3. Handicapped players requiring bidding boxes will have preference when availability is limited.
4. Non-handicapped players may use bidding boxes, if available, in games in which such use is not mandated as long as no player at
the table objects.

Given that bidding boxes are ubiquitous these days, I suspect this regulation dates back to, and remains essentially unchanged from, the days when they were first introduced in North America. Also, I wonder what "optional" in #1 means: whose is the option? The TO? The director in charge of the event? The players at the table? The janitor?

[aguahombre]

I vote for the janitor, and get on with life.