[straube]

Should double here be takeout or penalty? We play it as takeout but I seem to have a penalty double more often than a takeout double. Also, I can balance in a 4-cd major or 2N to show takeout shape. Sure, I'd rather double with takeout shape instead of take the bid, but we retain then the penalty double. Interested in other opinions.

[aguahombre]

Am sure I will be in the minority here. But, I agree with your rationale for changing your current agreement. Now, we both await the "all doubles are takeout" barrage.

Btw: 2M in this situation obviously has another suit because we wouldn't have 3 of theirs.

[karlson]

I can remember a lot of times I had a takeout double, and very few (none?) where I had a penalty double. Not sure why your experience is different. Perhaps some simulations would be useful.

[aguahombre]

karlson, on 2014-July-01, 21:16, said:

I can remember a lot of times I had a takeout double, and very few (none?) where I had a penalty double. Not sure why your experience is different. Perhaps some simulations would be useful.

The frequency is not relevant. Do all the sims you want. When you can have Double for penalty and a takeout bid for takeout, the world is a happy place.

[the hog]

aguahombre, on 2014-July-01, 20:34, said:

Am sure I will be in the minority here. But, I agree with your rationale for changing your current agreement. Now, we both await the "all doubles are takeout" barrage.

Btw: 2M in this situation obviously has another suit because we wouldn't have 3 of theirs.

So why can't you have a 5332 where the 5 is a M and the doubleton is in theirs? Is that forbidden in the agh system?
X is takeout for me.

Ron

[aguahombre]

the hog, on 2014-July-01, 21:44, said:

So why can't you have a 5332 where the 5 is a M and the doubleton is in theirs? Is that forbidden in the agh system?
X is takeout for me.

Ron

I learned transfers last week and use them on occasion after 1N (P)

[the hog]

aguahombre, on 2014-July-01, 22:03, said:

I learned transfers last week and use them on occasion after 1N (P)

I misread the bidding and thought it had gone

1N (P) (P) (2X)
X

If people learned how to post hands properly and not in the title this would not occur.

[whereagles]

Just to be picky, it's not

1N (P) (P) (2X)
X

but

1N (P) P (2X)
X

[aguahombre]

whereagles, on 2014-July-02, 01:33, said:

Just to be picky, it's not

1N (P) (P) (2X)
X

but

1N (P) P (2X)
X

Just to be pickier:

1N (P) P (2x)
P (P) ?

And just for giggles, I might confirm the nature of the balancing (2x) before doing something silly.

[gszes]

The fact that you have a hand that prefers to penalize the opps
is great but do you really want to x for penalties here and warn
both opps (while they are still in position to do something about
it) that their current trump suit may be in grave danger? If you
are going to set the opps you are due a modest to moderate gain.
The x as penalty will probably make that moderate to big but only
if the warned opps have no place else to go.

Saving the x for takeout allows you to compete with a wide variety
of hands that had to pass 1n due to lack of power but may have 2 or
even 3 decent places to play other than 1n and would be completely
handicapped when using x as penalty. The x as TOX also allows the 1n
opener to pass and convert to penalty when they have a trump stack
behind the 2x bidder (a much happier place than in front of them).

The upside to using X as takeout means you side is in a strong position
to gain whenever it is possible for your side to gain while playing x
as penalty only places your side in position for strong gain when the
forewarned opps have no where else to go does not seem like a good trade off.

[whereagles]

aguahombre, on 2014-July-02, 08:26, said:

1N (P) P (2x)
P (P) ?

pickling away:

1NT (P) P (2x)
P (P) ?

[mycroft]

If this double is takeout, then you have to have good agreements on what opener does after
1NT-p-p-2x . Especially "when do I double?"

Yes, if you have a call for penalty and a call for takeout, you're good - unless any overcall means you're playing at the three level (because, of course, I've learned this thing called transfers too (and when I didn't use them I still "untransferred"). I guess you can bid 2M to show "4 and a takeoutish type hand" as well.

As always, discussion. OTOH, I'm frequently playing a weak NT, so there are more hands where I want to take a penalty (easier to defend with 12 opposite 10 than 16 opposite 6). So I see the world through different eyes.

[karlson]

aguahombre, on 2014-July-01, 21:31, said:

The frequency is not relevant. Do all the sims you want. When you can have Double for penalty and a takeout bid for takeout, the world is a happy place.

It's really not that simple, and I'm surprised by how often I hear this.

There are many advantages to being able to double for takeout instead of bidding for takeout. Firstly, opener may be able to pass. Just because he can make a penalty double himself doesn't mean he has would have done so -- he doesn't want to risk it opposite a weak hand, but knowing that partner has some values in the other suits, he's happy to convert. Secondly, you may be able to find a better fit. For instance, say responder has 4144 and it goes 1n p p 2h p p. If he bids 2s showing 4s and a minor, opener just has to bid 3c with, say, 2353. If the auction is 1n p p 2s p p, so your takeout bid is 2n, you've now lost the ability for opener to show two places to play -- he just has to pick a suit, whereas if you doubled he could bid 2n, showing some 4-4, and you could scramble to the best fit (imagine, for instance, opener 3244 and responder 1453/1435).

[straube]

I think much of the point of opening 1N is not having to bid again unless responder asks. I don't like the idea of opener having to make takeout doubles after say 1N (P) P (2H) unless he has something rather ideal...like max, weak doubleton heart and 4234 or whatever. It should be a rare thing imo, but if it's rare then responder will not be able to convert opener's absent takeout double to penalty and thus consequently needs double to be penalty.

I take Karlson's point about better fit-finding after a takeout double than responder bidding something with takeout shape. Still, responder should have takeout shape when bidding and not be 2-suited unless equal level conversion (say 4S and 5D after a balancing 2H bid). More important, I don't see that takeout doubles leave much use for a balancing 2S bid in this auction. Are they meant to cater to 4S/5C hands?