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What sort of hand for this double?
#1
Posted 2014-April-14, 04:44
For the following sequence:
1♠ - X - 2♠ - pass
4♠ - X - pass - ?
Undiscussed, what is partner's second double here?
If it is clearly takeout, what sort of hand and vuln would you make the double on? Interested to know if it suggests defensive values, or if it is an unequivocal instruction to play at the 5 level.
1♠ - X - 2♠ - pass
4♠ - X - pass - ?
Undiscussed, what is partner's second double here?
If it is clearly takeout, what sort of hand and vuln would you make the double on? Interested to know if it suggests defensive values, or if it is an unequivocal instruction to play at the 5 level.
#3
Posted 2014-April-14, 06:00
2 times negatives don't make a positive here.
He is just showing that he has extras that we do not expect from first double and a take out shape usually (rare he may have a DBL then NT hand)
He knows we will lift it with shape. He has good enough hand to play 4♠ doubled if we do not have shape to bid or believe that this is the best place for us to settle.
He is just showing that he has extras that we do not expect from first double and a take out shape usually (rare he may have a DBL then NT hand)
He knows we will lift it with shape. He has good enough hand to play 4♠ doubled if we do not have shape to bid or believe that this is the best place for us to settle.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#4
Posted 2014-April-14, 06:13
Endymion77, on 2014-April-14, 04:51, said:
If he has a pure takeout hand, he can bid 4NT.
I disagree. I think this double is a pure t/o. Not pure in the sense that you are not allowed to pass it (in fact you should probably pass this hand with most balanced hands). 1444 is expected but he could have 04(54). I suppose that 2(344) is possible also but he would have to be very strong to double with such a hand, and that is not likely on this auction.
4NT would be a more two-suited hand for me. 6♦,4♣ is what you should assume in first instance. If partner corrects you 4♣ bid to 4♦ he probably has 4♥ 6♦.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#5
Posted 2014-April-14, 07:01
Endymion77, on 2014-April-14, 04:51, said:
It shows convertible values (Kx AQxx AKxx Axx or something, who knows what opps are bidding on in this case - maybe opener has a big 2-suiter). If he has a pure takeout hand, he can bid 4NT.
Can you really afford to bid 4NT on pure take-out hands? Surely, if you are strong enough to suggest playing at the 5 level in any other suit, the best result will often actually be to play in 4♠X? 11 tricks is a lot to make against bidding opponents; whereas 4, on defense, is far more likely.
#6
Posted 2014-April-14, 07:30
4 NT take out idea satisfies those who wants to make sure their pd passes when/if they hold a "bone crusher" penalty double hand.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#8
Posted 2014-April-14, 07:44
helene_t, on 2014-April-14, 06:13, said:
4NT would be a more two-suited hand for me. 6♦,4♣ is what you should assume in first instance. If partner corrects you 4♣ bid to 4♦ he probably has 4♥ 6♦.
Yes, that's what I meant by pure takeout - 'double+bid' sort of TOX that doesn't really want to defend 4♠
#9
Posted 2014-April-14, 08:03
I haven't encountered this situation when (as Doubler) I held a two-suiter or a 6-4 semi two-suiter and wanted to bid now. Maybe that is because of the nature of our overcalls and two-suited direct bids.
Humongous Heart one-suiter could happen.
Humongous Heart one-suiter could happen.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#10
Posted 2014-April-14, 20:26
el mister, on 2014-April-14, 04:44, said:
For the following sequence:
1♠ - X - 2♠ - pass
4♠ - X - pass - ?
Undiscussed, what is partner's second double here?
If it is clearly takeout, what sort of hand and vuln would you make the double on? Interested to know if it suggests defensive values, or if it is an unequivocal instruction to play at the 5 level.
1♠ - X - 2♠ - pass
4♠ - X - pass - ?
Undiscussed, what is partner's second double here?
If it is clearly takeout, what sort of hand and vuln would you make the double on? Interested to know if it suggests defensive values, or if it is an unequivocal instruction to play at the 5 level.
Still takeout, but better than the first double.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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