[Fluffy]

---

If you double

Spoiler

Partner jumps to 4♠

If you bid 4 clubs

Spoiler

Partner raises to 5

If you bid 4NT

Spoiler

Partner bids 5♣

If you bid 4♥

Spoiler

Partner bids 4NT

[ahydra]

X, then 4NT ask keycards, planning to play slam in spades.

ahydra

[Trinidad]

I will bid 4 clubs

Spoiler

Fluffy, on 2014-March-21, 01:37, said:

Partner raises to 5

and I will respect partner's sign-off in game

Rik

[aguahombre]

ahydra, on 2014-March-21, 06:00, said:

X, then 4NT ask keycards, planning to play slam in spades.

ahydra

Yes, the combination of spoilers does tell us to do that. Unfortunately, I wouldn't have doubled.

[whereagles]

I'll just terminate hand description with 4♣. Dbl could work out better, though.

If pard raises to 5, I'll just stick to it, on grounds of "if fixed, stay fixed".

[ahydra]

aguahombre, on 2014-March-21, 08:30, said:

Yes, the combination of spoilers does tell us to do that. Unfortunately, I wouldn't have doubled.

Nothing to do with the other spoilers - I just feel that the hand is too strong for 4C. Three losers! That's enough for a 2C opening for some (most?) people.

Now after partner jumps to 4S, given that 3S would not be forcing I'm placing him with at least a moderately-decent hand and a 6-card suit, so we might even have grand on.

ahydra

[aguahombre]

ahydra, on 2014-March-21, 09:06, said:

Nothing to do with the other spoilers - I just feel that the hand is too strong for 4C. Three losers! That's enough for a 2C opening for some (most?) people.

Now after partner jumps to 4S, given that 3S would not be forcing I'm placing him with at least a moderately-decent hand and a 6-card suit, so we might even have grand on.

ahydra

If we Double and partner doesn't jump to 4S, when he previously hasn't even shown 5 of them we won't know what trump should be, let alone how high. The Double, however, seems to have worked out well this time.

[mike777]

4c

I guess 6c now...pard will never play me for a 3 loser hand.

Kind of weird bidding east is a passed hand...west could not overcall 1d and north could not cue 4h after 4c

oh well.

[gszes]

I haven't read the spoilers (how does one make spoilers?)
I was severely torn between dbl and 5c. I am a bit surprised
to see so many vote for 4c when 5c seems like a much more
accurate description of the offensive value of this hand.

I might be under the delusion that 5c is actually stronger
than 4c but that tries to make a case that the weaker yet more
distributional hand has to take the large gamble that 5 of a
minor is right while 4 of a minor is bid with a stronger hand
merely because it might make slam bidding easier. Not sure I
buy that line of reasoning. I would surely love to compete with
4c holding something like x xx AKxxx AQJxx where I need a trump
fit and some minor help to make 5 (and an ace(s) from p). Bidding 5c
with this collection seems to be designed for optimists.

Dbl

Not an easy choice but the honor x in spades gives me just enough
wiggle room to consider playing a spade contract vs insisting on
one of my (really) nice minors. I certainly have the extra values
needed for this bid though I am somewhat unhappy with having only
a singleton heart. Dbl offers flexibility not only of level of contract
but strain as well while 4/5 clubs pretty much eliminates the spade suit
(usually a bad idea).

[mikeh]

I know I am getting too old for this forum. Can't we ever make a penalty double anymore?

RHO didn't pre-empt in 1st chair....and we're now supposed to assume that on this delayed pre-empt he holds a solid, classic first seat pre-empt?

End of preliminary rant.

As for what I would do, I think it useful to be able to show a very good playing hand with 10+ cards in the minors, and I have a way to do that: 4♣.

If I trust partner, he can show a good raise, with working cards, via 4♥ without implying a heart control. 4♦ would be a preference, 4♠ would be an offer to play, so the only strength raise he has is 4♥, which is logically sort of LTTC.

Now, he might choose 5♣ with a perfect minimum...the spade A and the club K and nothing else, but even with that, and 4+ clubs, I think he should make the 4♥ call. So while I might miss a decent or even cold slam, I expect 4♣ to allow us to reach 6 most of the time it is good.

I think double, even if takeout, is flawed. It is a 'cook' to know his rebid, and even then it isn't clear that we aren't hanging partner by keycarding.

As for 4N immediately, that is keycard where I come from so it is absurd. Even if, for some reason, it were the minors, it would show longer diamonds than clubs, which isn't what we hold.

4♥ is unambiguously spades, especially when double is takeout. Cues of their suit below 3N need not be a raise, but 4♥ absolutely is, imo.


Btw, if he passes 4♣, which I don't expect, we haven't yet made that contract let alone game and there is some chance we won't: picture QJxxx Kxx xx xxx, and he could have a worse hand than that.

[Fluffy]

Good job mikeh, partner had ♠AQxxxx ♥xx ♦Jx ♣Kxx

[MickyB]

It wouldn't have occurred to me to do anything but double 3H. If partner bids 3S then I bid 4C...

[cherdano]

mikeh, on 2014-March-21, 15:18, said:

I think double, even if takeout, is flawed. It is a 'cook' to know his rebid, and even then it isn't clear that we aren't hanging partner by keycarding.

I disagree, 4♠ is just the rebid I don't want to hear. E.g. if he bids 3♠, I can bid 4♣ over that, and trust partner to pick the right strain 99.83% of the time. If he bids a minor, I can raise (while making one slam try). But if he bids 4♠, I am probably stuck trusting his spades are good enough to play slam.

My main problem with bidding 4♣ is that we might be missing 4♠ if partner is weak with 6 spades. We would also bid 4♣ with a 1165 hand much weaker in hcp. What is partner supposed to do with 6(322) and ♠Qxxxxx over 4♣?

[the hog]

Strange players in you country, Fluffy. Not good enough to open with a pre empt but good enough to put your head on the chopping block in a live auction. Anyway, I am bidding 4C.

[Fluffy]

Indded, that's areason why I raised 4♣ to 5♣ instead of trying 4♠. I expected LHO to have 7-4 majors. Instead he had 2722 with ♥KJ and out. 5♣ was a big bottom.