[vodkagirl]

This is a 2/1 auction with a non-regular partner who I had played a few hands with. We are using Inverted Minors.

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Only two of us out of sixteen found 3N. All but one ended up in ♦s and all but two ended up in 5♦.

My reasoning is that using IM I know we have length and if I am going to have to win 9 tricks I could just as easily do it in no trumps as I have all the other suits stoppered.

As only two of us found 3N I am wondering why that is the case. What is so attractive about 5♦?

[Antrax]

Do you know what the auction was? Is it possible 5♦ was bid over the opponents' 4♥ contract?

I must say I'd pass with your hand opposite 3♦, expecting to make at most 7 tricks in no-trump (your partner's 5 or so diamonds and the two major-suit aces).

[helene_t]

I think 3NT is a bad choice. You only stop the majors once and given that partner denied a 4-card major, opps can probably set up quite a lot of major suit tricks if they find the right lead - and if partner doesn't have help in spades, any major suit lead will be good for them. If partner has both major suit kings (unlikely!) he can't have much more than that so you won't be able to establish tricks in both minors, which you will need. You could be lucky with a spade lead and partner having ♠Jxx. Even then you still need some luck since you can only afford to lose the lead once before both minor suits are established.

5♦ has better chances. Give partner two kings (♦K+another, or ♣K+♠K, or ♣K+♥K if they don't lead a spade) and it probably makes. Otherwise you might be lucky with a finesse if partner has ♦QJ, or ♣A, or ♠QJ. Or maybe a singleton spades. Or there could be a ruffing finesse if partner has ♥QJ and they don't lead a spade.

With a non-regular partner you probably don't know exactly what "inverted minors" means. Some play it as 4-7 and others as 6-10. If you know that your partner plays it the solid way, and that he would understand a 4♣ game try (you need an honour in clubs for 5♦ to have reasonable chances), I would do that. But under most circumstances I would pass 3♦.

[vodkagirl]

helene_t, on 2014-March-12, 04:12, said:

I think 3NT is a bad choice. You only stop the majors once....

Helene, could you please say some more about having the majors stopped only once. I thought it was only suits opponents have bid that needed double stopping. Or should I be foreseeing that if both partner and I have so few points that we are at 3♦ then I need double stoppers. I gambled everything on making my 9 tricks before they made one. It succeeded but that as we know it not the point. The other 3N went down one which clearly shows that it was risky.

I will search out the hand again and see how the other auctions went.

[helene_t]

Dear Vodkagirl,

Yes it is right that in many auctions you don't need to worry too much about stoppers. Actually it is a classic beginner's mistake not to bid 3NT out of fear of unguarded suits - Fluffy (he is a pro and Bermuda Bowl player so worth listening to!) once said that the best piece of advice he could give club players is not to worry about stops at all!

The reason is that often, even if partner hasn't promised stoppers, he has promised points, and there is reason to think that some of them are in the suits you are worried about. Partly because you have 25+ points together and partly because opps' failure to bid a suit sometimes suggests that partner has something in it.

Here the situation is different. You know that opponents have at least nine hearts and eight spades. The fact that they didn't bid them doesn't mean much since partner took away the bidding space from them. And you rate to have less than 25 points between you.

If you had six (or better: seven) diamonds in your hand, you would often be able to make 3NT with few HCPs and single stoppers because you can take nine tricks immediately. Here you need to set up two minor suits. You can't do that without losing lead.

In summary: You are likely to make 3NT with a single stopper (even without stoppers) in the unbid suits when:
- Partner is likely to have some help (just half a stopper will do)
- You have Axx and holding up twice may be enough to break their communication
- Opps are likely not to find the right lead
- You have a long suit so maybe nine tricks without losing the lead
- Opps appear not to have a 5-card suit so even if they establish the suit they might not make too many suits
- we have balancendish hands, are in a GF and dont have a major suit fit so we just have to hope 3NT makes, anything else will have less chance.

Here, none of the above criteria apply. So 5♦ has better chances.

[rhm]

vodkagirl, on 2014-March-12, 06:44, said:

Helene, could you please say some more about having the majors stopped only once. I thought it was only suits opponents have bid that needed double stopping. Or should I be foreseeing that if both partner and I have so few points that we are at 3♦ then I need double stoppers. I gambled everything on making my 9 tricks before they made one. It succeeded but that as we know it not the point. The other 3N went down one which clearly shows that it was risky.

I will search out the hand again and see how the other auctions went.

How many stoppers you need depends on circumstances and the nature of your stoppers.
If you hold QJ9x in an unbid suit, you may have only one stopper, but opponents are not that likely to run many tricks against you and they will have to develop at least one trick for you.
If you hold a singleton ace, this will be gone after trick one and thereafter opponents may have already enough tricks in the suit led to beat you.
They develop nothing for you, because the ace can always be cashed without delay.

3NT is a bad bid, because

after the inverted weak double raise, you do not come close to 25 HCP, usually needed for 9 tricks in 3NT.
Your hand is very suit oriented. You are unbalanced with a 5-4 or a 5-5 fit in diamonds.
With this hand 11 tricks in diamonds are more likely than 9 tricks in notrump.
For example you might make 5♦ if your partner has the minor suit kings and nothing else.
With this 3NT has no play after a major suit lead but 5♦ has great play. Your only losers might be a club and a spade.

Rainer Herrmann

[vodkagirl]

Partner held:

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I looked at the other auctions. The most common contract was 5♦. This was sometimes arrived at over competition and sometimes freely. Only three tables found the correct contract of 3♦.

[Antrax]

It's that same partner again, isn't it.
Know that for most pairs, 3♦ denies a four card major. Have you two agreed otherwise?

[johnu]

Antrax, on 2014-March-12, 11:28, said:

It's that same partner again, isn't it.
Know that for most pairs, 3♦ denies a four card major. Have you two agreed otherwise?

No problem. That agreement doesn't say anything about a 5 card major so partner's 3♦ is ok.

[steve2005]

vodkagirl, on 2014-March-12, 03:40, said:

This is a 2/1 auction with a non-regular partner who I had played a few hands with. We are using Inverted Minors.

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vodkagirl, on 2014-March-12, 11:15, said:

Partner held:

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I looked at the other auctions. The most common contract was 5♦. This was sometimes arrived at over competition and sometimes freely. Only three tables found the correct contract of 3♦.

Even with this monster of a hand for 3♦ I don't like your chances for 3N on a ♠ lead. Even other leads odd don't look good without a defensive error. All 5♦ needs is a 2-1 ♦ break and I suspect experts can even make on 3-0.

[mycroft]

Wow. I guess you're never allowed to hold

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?

[vodkagirl]

Antrax, on 2014-March-12, 11:28, said:

It's that same partner again, isn't it.
Know that for most pairs, 3♦ denies a four card major. Have you two agreed otherwise?

As I said in the OP this was a random. Denying a four card major was never said out "aloud" so to speak but I would have thought anyone playing IM would know that. Yet this guy failed to bid his major.

Should the bidding have gone something like: 1♦ 1♥ 2♣ 4♦ 5♦?

[mike777]

inverted minors are so tricky...every one plays them different.


3nt vs 5d is very very tough....in MP impossible.

at the very least south can bid 1h.

I expect many I repeat many to play in 3nt.

1nt=2d
2h=3d
4d or 3nt?

[Antrax]

Why would you open 1NT with 2=1=5=5? There's no rebid problem.

[Trump Echo]

The way the auction is, I think I'd have raised to 4 Diamonds - I'd be too wary of 3 NT.

But let's say South showed the Hearts.

1♦, 1♥

2♣

Now it's South's bid and he has a problem, at least in my system. A jump to 3 D would be a GF, and the hand is not strong enough. But a bid of 2 D would undervalue his hand.

This might be why South elected to hide the hearts.

[DAVDJ1]

What question? GREEN CARD unless you are dead anyway and only a top can save you

[johnu]

Trump Echo, on 2014-March-13, 09:22, said:

The way the auction is, I think I'd have raised to 4 Diamonds - I'd be too wary of 3 NT.

But let's say South showed the Hearts.

1♦, 1♥

2♣

Now it's South's bid and he has a problem, at least in my system. A jump to 3 D would be a GF, and the hand is not strong enough. But a bid of 2 D would undervalue his hand.

This might be why South elected to hide the hearts.

Playing 4th suit forcing, most play 2♦ as a simple preference, 3♦ as invitational, game forcing sequences go through 2♠.

In your system, what's worse, hiding a 5 card heart suit which is an unbelievable bid, or make a small underbid by making a 2♦ preference on the 2nd round.

[johnu]

DAVDJ1, on 2014-March-13, 10:36, said:

What question? GREEN CARD unless you are dead anyway and only a top can save you

Referring to what post?

[whereagles]

3NT seems like a psyche to me LOL

Anyway, 5♦ is fair. Pard should have diamonds covered and it's not that unlikely to find a club honor across. That's all you need to make it.

You can also try 3♠ (stopper). If pard now bids 3NT, there's heart wastage and you can perhaps leave it in. But if he pulls, you can now take a shot at 5♦.

[whereagles]

mike777, on 2014-March-12, 23:42, said:

inverted minors are so tricky...every one plays them different.

And nearly every one plays them wrong!!