[eagles123]

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So the n/s bidding is very odd, dunno why north didn't open, but who to blame here out of E/W 4 H went 2 or 3 off can't remember but 4 club was obviously going off badly as well.

East thought West's 2D bid was

Quote

ridiculous

West though East's bidding was

Quote

thoughtless

and wondered what was expected for 2!d in that situation.


this was a first time partnership, needless to say i think a first and only time partnership as well

[helene_t]

East could have shown some teeth by redoubling at his 2nd turn, or he might have shown his extra length (you do play 4-card majors so he has a lot more hearts than he might have had) by bidding 2♥ but maybe he knew that the opponents were not so good bidders so he might get a chance to play 1♥X if he stayed quiet ....

2♦ is fine. I suppose some would say it shows some heart tolerance but without any specialised agreements I think it just shows diamonds.

3♥ is ok although it looks a bit weird not to bid the suit at the 2-level and now suddenly to bid it at the 3-level.

4♥ is very bad. East has shown his hearts already - he can't have less in hearts when he bids them at the 3-level without partner having promised anything in hearts. What he hasn't shown is his overall strength. So the correct call is double. Note that North is unlikely to have more than 5 clubs but even so he bids 4♣ opposite what could easily be a 4-card suit. So it look like NS could be too high. Give partner a chance to defend - after all you passed in 2nd round in the hope that NS would do something silly and now it seems like that is what has happened. If partner is short in clubs and has seven diamonds and/or a bit of heart support, he doesn't have to pass your double.

[cherdano]

East was ridiculous twice, first in the auction (Pass is bad, and 4♥ is awful), then in the post-mortem. What else should 2♦ show - did he forget partner passed over 1♥??

[ggwhiz]

Every bid East made after 1♥ was progressively worse and thinking that 2 passed hands could win 10 tricks or that you could make 4♥ indicates a future opponent that you can take to the bank.

Ask them if they play for money.

[cherdano]

 helene_t, on 2014-January-02, 07:56, said:

... but maybe [East] knew that the opponents were not so good bidders so he might get a chance to play 1♥X if he stayed quiet ....

If he know NS were bad bidders, why would he not double 4♣?

[eagles123]

thank god for that, I was West at the table, think it was the first time i've had a real argument at the table, with my regular partner we always go over the hands after and don't comment much at the time. Maybe i should've known what was coming when, earlier in the morning he wanted me to play 3D after stayman as showing both majors, possibly the most dumb idea i've ever heard of in a weak NT context.

Cheers,

Eagles

[helene_t]

 cherdano, on 2014-January-02, 08:18, said:

If he know NS were bad bidders, why would he not double 4♣?

Yes I made that comment also (possibly inserted after your followup, dunno). Just took the calls one at a time.

[aguahombre]

 eagles123, on 2014-January-02, 08:37, said:

thank god for that, I was West at the table,

You're welcome. But, you did make the first mistake by sitting across from East.

[eagles123]

 aguahombre, on 2014-January-02, 09:04, said:

You're welcome. But, you did make the first mistake by sitting across from East.

not really my choice, both ours p's didn't turn up so we were thrown together lol

the frustrating thing is my p for the day isn't that bad a player, i.e. he made a contract on a squeeze which is quite unusual for our level, just has a tendency to talk complete rubbish .

[billw55]

North and east deserve each other as partner. I would love to see a few auctions from that pairing. The post mortems would likely be humorous as well.

[helene_t]

 billw55, on 2014-January-02, 09:38, said:

North and east deserve each other as partner. I would love to see a few auctions from that pairing. The post mortems would likely be humorous as well.

Yeah, East was very bad but I think North was even worse, if possible.

[eagles123]

 billw55, on 2014-January-02, 09:38, said:

North and east deserve each other as partner. I would love to see a few auctions from that pairing. The post mortems would likely be humorous as well.

North must be 90 +

[aguahombre]

North was donking with the 4C bid for sure. Perhaps he has seen East in action before.

Dont come down on that 3rd seat Pass very hard, though. Considering how light we would open 1 in first seat, we have been known to apply Pearson in 3rd with a hand like that.

[billw55]

 eagles123, on 2014-January-02, 09:53, said:

North must be 90 +

 aguahombre, on 2014-January-02, 09:54, said:

Dont come down on that 3rd seat Pass very hard, though. Considering how light we would open 1 in first seat, we have been known to apply Pearson in 3rd with a hand like that.

Agree in principle. But from eagles' comment, I doubt this north was considering modern light openings.

[ggwhiz]

 eagles123, on 2014-January-02, 09:08, said:

not really my choice, both ours p's didn't turn up so we were thrown together lol

100% blame to your partner for being awol and they owe you a drink or 8.

[rmnka447]

IMHO North's hand is a borderline opener. 12 HCP and 2 QTs, but with two dangling honors. Aggressive players probably open it anyway. Slightly more conservative players may not. Change the hand to ♠ xx ♥ QJx ♦ AQxx ♣ Kxxx and it's a clear cut opener.

East gets all the blame on this auction. West has bid exactly right. The 2 ♦ bid shows exactly the hand that West has and is right to keep from selling out at too low a level.

East misbid after the reopening double. The choice was among Redouble, 2 ♥, or 3 ♥. 2 ♥ shows a decent opener with a 6 card suit. 3 ♥ shows 16+ and a good 6+ card suit. Redouble shows extras (16+) and says nothing about distribution.

I'd probably bid 3 ♥. It describes the hand and makes it more difficult for the opponents to compete.

Well, East took none of those choices, then tried to catch up later.

With 4 1/2 QTs, East should Double 4 ♣. If it's right to bid 4 ♥ opposite a partner with less than 5, then East should have originally opened with a strong opening bid (presumably 2 ♣).

[Zelandakh]

 eagles123, on 2014-January-02, 08:37, said:

Maybe i should've known what was coming when, earlier in the morning he wanted me to play 3D after stayman as showing both majors, possibly the most dumb idea i've ever heard of in a weak NT context.

This dumb idea was a standard part of Acol for many many years and goes by the title of some unpronouncable Polish name. Most just call it Extended Stayman though. It is so dumb I have even used it myself. It also fits well with the 3-suit transfer idea of handling club hands via a first round transfer but diamond hands via Stayman. Then 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♣ can be diamonds and 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♦ is whichever both major hand seems to be most awkward for the rest of the structure, commonly 5-5 majors and GF. And there are other possibilities too. Indeed I still use a variant of it within a Puppet Stayman structure with 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♣ showing a GF hand with both majors (only in this case 4-4/5-4/4-5).

So I am afraid I cannot agree with you on this being the dumbest idea. I do agree that East takes the blame though. It is a common mistake to overbid on maximum opening bids after Responder makes a first round pass. After all, West showed essentially nothing except long diamonds and East unilaterally bid game without great shape. If they felt the hand was that good they should have been opening 2♣. But the hand is not that good.

Finally, I think it would have been a good idea for East to make a second round XX to show a good hand off the bat. That way they may be less inclined to overbid later. An immediate 2♥ is, for me, not showing anything extra at all but rather just long hearts. This is basically the initial decision from East's point of view - whether the auction should still be constructive after the initial pass or merely competitive. Which is better is irrelevant - this East clearly thought of their hand as constructive so XX is the best way forward. The creative alternative of passing was a little eccentric.

The rest is barely worth commenting on. If I bid this way then it would basically be an attempt to get doubled with some nasty surprise like a double fit and a void or two. In this respect going 2 or 3 off undoubled was a success of sorts. In any case, West's actions seem pretty normal and East's 4♥ was clearly the worst call and the cause of the bad board.