[mycroft]

do you play 1NT-2♦; 2♥-3♠ as slam-try in hearts (presumably 5)? If so, there you go. If not, it's really up to your agreements as to how to handle a 5-trump key-card choice of games/slams.

[ggwhiz]

I can't believe this I/A simple question has devolved into voidwood, revolving super accepts yada yada

Rephrase in a new thread and you might get something usable.

Mycroft mentions the "impossible major" treatment above which is so rare it's hard to remember but about the only response I would go with.

[fromageGB]

This is the right forum, and there is nothing wrong with I/A players like myself using voidwood etc.

As to the situation, if I was playing these methods then 5NT would be K asking if there was no prior Q ask. K asking is used to see if grand is there, and missing the Q you would not want to be in grand. Ergo, 5NT after Q ask is not K ask, but something else.

With no agreement, I would take it as to play. Especially at matchpoints.

[Zelandakh]

 BillHiggin, on 2013-September-12, 09:59, said:

IMHO, this is incredibly bad advice to give to a player who is confused about when 4N is blackwood! I would never recommend this relay to less than expert players (well, I would never recommend it period) as it will create issues with super accepts.

While you are probably right about this being unsuitable for the OP, this is the I/A forum and not N/B and there are other readers here too.

Also, the method suggested does not mess with super-accepts at all. All of the hands within 2♦ have 5+ hearts; it is only that 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ becomes the equivalent of 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT but adds some additional GF hand types. It is the same idea as using 1NT - 2♠ as a range ask (and bundling in either club hands or Baron); similarly for 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠. These were ideas that I was working with before I had even played a bridge hand with a real partner or real opponents (ie pure Novice in BBO terms) so should not be beyond most Advanced players!

[Cyberyeti]

 blackshoe, on 2013-September-12, 06:44, said:

Out of curiousity if 1NT-2♦-2♥-4♠ is RKCB for hearts, and 4NT in the auction 1NT-4♦-4♥-4NT is also RKCB for hearts, what's the difference? Just heart length?

The difference is that the former allows you to bail out in 5♥ if 2+Q is insufficient, hence the latter should be your spade voidwood.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Just some side notes...
When ♥ are trump, Meckwell plays 4S = regular kickback-RKCB and 4NT! as voidwood-RKCB ( ♠Ace excluded ) .
I think it goes something like this:
1NT - 4D!
4H - ???
....... 4S! = regular kickback-RKCB
....... 4NT! = Voidwood, excluding ♠
....... 5C! = Voidwood, excluding ♣
....... 5D! = Voidwood, excluding ♦.

Meckwell, then uses the following "Responder-showing" slamish bids after a simple transfer to ♥ ( implying long ♥) :
1NT - 2D!
2H - ???
...... 4S! = "showing" 0 or 3
......4NT! = 1 or 4
...... 5C! = 2 - ♥Q
...... 5D! = 2 + ♥Q

[JLOGIC]

"To play" seems pretty clear to me at MP if you have no agreements

[Fluffy]

I suggested that this is specific queen ask in 2009, but not many people listened.
http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry379944

[Mbodell]

FWIW I'd probably bid 2♦ then 5nt with this hand opposite a 15-17 nt. You have a 17 count and 5 hearts. If partner doesn't have 3 hearts you don't want to play in hearts. You don't want to insist on hearts as trump. You could decide to bid 2♦ and then 4nt, which in standard, should mean choose between passing 4nt, bidding 6nt, bidding 6♥ (or occasionally 5♥ or some other slam offer) knowing that the responder has 5 hearts and a quantitative invite. With a control rich 17 and a good 5 card suit, I'd force to slam, and 5nt should say pick between 6♥ and 6nt knowing that I have the good 17 to bad 19 that makes 6 clear with 7 being unlikely. It isn't without risk as partner could have a 15 count and you might be missing AK of clubs. But that would be really unlucky (and very occasionally even then they might not find them and you might have 12 tricks anyways).

If you had a second 4 card suit you could have shown it, so partner is quite likely to "know" you are some 5♥332 shape if that helps the decision.

[ibraves]

I might be wrong here but I think that some people play 5N(or equiv) after denying the queen as the strongest possible grand invitation

[monikrazy]

 dickiegera, on 2013-September-11, 20:09, said:

I play kickback with a few partners but this particlar partner forgets and therefore wishes not to play kickback.

I was East and held

---

What would be better biding on my part not playing kickback?

I believe 4♣ after the transfer would typically be RKC gerber (hearts ). This is probably the auction you are looking for. Opener gets to choose the final strain since this method should promise exactly 5 hearts; but you will be able to determine the correct level.


Using RKC gerber I believe this is one sequence you could use to bid the grand slam

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 4♣ - 4♥ - 4♠ - 5♣ - 5♥ - 7♥ or 7NT

Explanations:
2♦ transfer
4♣ RKC Gerber
4♥ 1 or 4 keycards
4♠ Queen-asks, all other 5 keycards are accounted for
5♣ All 6 keycards held, inquires Kings
5♥ 1 King

*7NT - With only 2 Hearts Opener would bid NT instead of ♥

** The 5♥ and 5♣ bids are redundant. Opener knows responder has the King♥ all ready. I included it in the hope other posters may find the asking-sequence instructional.

[Zelandakh]

 monikrazy, on 2013-September-15, 14:16, said:

I believe 4♣ after the transfer would typically be RKC gerber (hearts ).

Without additional discussion (eg agreeing Baze) I would assume 4♣ on this auction to be a splinter. More than that, almost any meaning of 4♣ here shows 6+ hearts. The problem is what to do with 5332 shape; and the answer to that is typically either to make a natural NT jump or to be playing a gadget such as the 2♠ Baron range ask-style advance.

Incidentally, in your auction you have 2 bids by Responder in a row (4♠ and 5♣) and at the end 2 bids by Opener in a row (5♥ and 7♥/7NT). You also have Opener making a choice which just would not occur in reality without some strange agreements.

[fromageGB]

Quite a good method, that I would like to adopt. I sometimes get hands where I would like to make two bids before it gets back to partner.

[monikrazy]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-September-16, 07:04, said:

Without additional discussion (eg agreeing Baze) I would assume 4♣ on this auction to be a splinter. More than that, almost any meaning of 4♣ here shows 6+ hearts. The problem is what to do with 5332 shape; and the answer to that is typically either to make a natural NT jump or to be playing a gadget such as the 2♠ Baron range ask-style advance.

Incidentally, in your auction you have 2 bids by Responder in a row (4♠ and 5♣) and at the end 2 bids by Opener in a row (5♥ and 7♥/7NT). You also have Opener making a choice which just would not occur in reality without some strange agreements.

No - you are not reading the auction correctly.

After the responder asks for the queen (4♠) opener instigates the next step. Responder can not ask for the queen without all aces and the king of trumps being accounted for.

It is true that the opener would frequently stop in small slam (and/or give responder a chance to upgrade to grand) but without partner's hand from OP I took some creative license.

[wyman]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-September-16, 07:04, said:

Without additional discussion (eg agreeing Baze) I would assume 4♣ on this auction to be a splinter

I agree that 4C is a splinter. Isn't "Baze" the structure over 1N-2C-2M, though? I never remember the names of these systems...

[Zelandakh]

 monikrazy, on 2013-September-16, 11:29, said:

Responder can not ask for the queen without all aces and the king of trumps being accounted for.

Why is that then? Have you never asked and found you were missing one key card and wanted to bid a small slam with the trump queen but not without? Yours is certainly an unusual treatment in many ways. The requirement of 5 key cards for a queen ask; the switch of asker-responder; not using specific-king responses; the abilits of Opener to switch to 7NT based on a doubleton heart without knowing partner's heart length. I know I sometimes post some weird stuff too and I do not want to be the kettle; only to say that I still do not really understand what 4♣ shows. To say RKCG is not enough because that implies a trump suit has been agreed, which is contradicted later on.

@wyman, you are right of course. But it is possible to play a Baze-style structure over a transfer and I do not know a better name for that. Not that I have ever played either of these personally. It was simply my reaction to the quote "I believe 4♣ after the transfer would typically be RKC gerber (hearts)" and my attempt to show just how un-typical this is (especially with a 5332 hand).

[monikrazy]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-September-17, 01:55, said:

Why is that then? Have you never asked and found you were missing one key card and wanted to bid a small slam with the trump queen but not without? Yours is certainly an unusual treatment in many ways. The requirement of 5 key cards for a queen ask; the switch of asker-responder; not using specific-king responses; the abilits of Opener to switch to 7NT based on a doubleton heart without knowing partner's heart length. I know I sometimes post some weird stuff too and I do not want to be the kettle; only to say that I still do not really understand what 4♣ shows. To say RKCG is not enough because that implies a trump suit has been agreed, which is contradicted later on.

@wyman, you are right of course. But it is possible to play a Baze-style structure over a transfer and I do not know a better name for that. Not that I have ever played either of these personally. It was simply my reaction to the quote "I believe 4♣ after the transfer would typically be RKC gerber (hearts)" and my attempt to show just how un-typical this is (especially with a 5332 hand).

You seem to have two seperate issues with my posts. The first is the use of a jump to 4♣ by responder after opener bids a trump suit after stayman or a transfer. Roman Key Card Gerber is is a common treatment. Maybe using 4C as a splinter is more popular right now, but this seems like an excellent auction for the use of 4♣ as RKCG. Your concern over the shape of our hand (perhaps you would prefer a rebid by responder of 5NT to show 5 hearts and a balanced hand?) seems somewhat misplaced, especially since RKC gerber allows us to query keycards early in the auction (mitigating some of the perceived risks). Responder clearly dictates that game will be played in hearts or NT, and promises exactly 5 hearts. His balanced shape should also be apparent to opener since he has methods of showing other 4 card suits in addition to hearts (ex. stayman followed by Smolen, 3♣ or 3♦ after tranfe) . Were responder to insist on hearts (promising at least 6) he could bid texas, followed by 4NT Roman Key Card Blackwood.

*Playing this method (essentially the Max Hardy method): Responder can bid 3S after 2H to show shortness in an undisclosed suit.


Your second issue is with how the auction would be likely to proceed after the queen-ask of 4♠, and whether responder might query the queen without the other keycards. I find these concerns here much more pertinent, and specifically see how the opener's jump to grand slam in my example auction could easily be viewed as unrealistic. I agree that opener bidding directly to grand slam on this sequence would be a rarity. I think I have sucessfully established my larger point that RKCG is a structurally sound slam-seeking for OP's hand though. If responder might query queens without all the other keycards (and without knowing that opener has more than 2 hearts), then 4NT would deny the queen and 5♣ would show the queen. Bids above 4NT would show the trump queen and other information, subject to partner agreement. I can post another auction if someone wants to provide me both hands (as opposed to only the responder)

[ArtK78]

 dickiegera, on 2013-September-11, 20:09, said:

I play kickback with a few partners but this particlar partner forgets and therefore wishes not to play kickback.

I was East and held

---

What would be better biding on my part not playing kickback?

Before discussing the suggested bidding sequence, answer this question - do you want to strongly invite 7NT or 7 ♥, or suggest bidding 7NT or 7♥?

Given that you have 17 HCP and a good five card suit, I would recommend that you suggest bidding a grand rather than demand it. In an earlier post, it was suggested that you transfer to hearts and then bid 5NT, which says to partner bid 7 with a maximum 1NT opening and a fit and bid 6 with a minimum 1NT opening or without a fit. In my opinion, this hand is not quite strong enough for that sequence.

I would suggest bidding on with the right hand by bidding 2♦ followed by 6NT. You would be showing a good 5 card heart suit and values for slam. There would be no reason for showing the heart suit and then bidding 6NT unless you had some interest in bidding more if partner had the right hand. The 6NT bid on this sequence is almost always the final contract. It is only when partner has exactly the right cards that he bids one more.

[Mbodell]

 ArtK78, on 2013-September-17, 13:11, said:

Before discussing the suggested bidding sequence, answer this question - do you want to strongly invite 7NT or 7 ♥, or suggest bidding 7NT or 7♥?

Given that you have 17 HCP and a good five card suit, I would recommend that you suggest bidding a grand rather than demand it. In an earlier post, it was suggested that you transfer to hearts and then bid 5NT, which says to partner bid 7 with a maximum 1NT opening and a fit and bid 6 with a minimum 1NT opening or without a fit. In my opinion, this hand is not quite strong enough for that sequence.

I would suggest bidding on with the right hand by bidding 2♦ followed by 6NT. You would be showing a good 5 card heart suit and values for slam. There would be no reason for showing the heart suit and then bidding 6NT unless you had some interest in bidding more if partner had the right hand. The 6NT bid on this sequence is almost always the final contract. It is only when partner has exactly the right cards that he bids one more.

To be clear, my understanding of standard (partially based on a thread on here 3 or 4 years ago), is that transfer to a major and then 5nt does not invite 7. Instead it says pick between 6M and 6nt. This is different than 1nt-5nt directly (which asks to choose between 6 and 7). I don't think transfer and then 6nt makes sense, as you should want to allow 6M as a contract.

[Zelandakh]

 monikrazy, on 2013-September-17, 12:34, said:

You seem to have two seperate issues with my posts. The first is the use of a jump to 4♣ by responder after opener bids a trump suit after stayman or a transfer. Roman Key Card Gerber is is a common treatment.

I have no fundamental issue with Baze-like structures. I do think that describing a bid that effectively shows a 5332 hand as RKCG would be misinformation, since 6+ would be expected. I certainly do not think that this form is common.

 monikrazy, on 2013-September-17, 12:34, said:

Maybe using 4C as a splinter is more popular right now, but this seems like an excellent auction for the use of 4♣ as RKCG.

Indeed, by using transfers over 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ combined with regular Stayman, you can get everything. For example´:

2♠ = range ask with balanced invite; or clubs; or strong one-suiter seeking cue auction
2NT = 5♥4♠ invite
3♣ = diamonds
3♦ = unspecified splinter
3♥ = invite
3♠ = cog based on 6+ hearts
3NT = normal cog
4♣ = RKCB with 6+ hearts
4♦ = RKCG with 5332

This is not what I play, since using Puppet forces me to give up the 3♦ rebid to show GF 5-5 major hands. And also because I fundamentally disagree with the nature of the 4♦ bid (see below). But it is an illustration of what is possible and I am all for saving space where that is possible without giving up anything too major.

 monikrazy, on 2013-September-17, 12:34, said:

Your concern over the shape of our hand (perhaps you would prefer a rebid by responder of 5NT to show 5 hearts and a balanced hand?) seems somewhat misplaced, especially since RKC gerber allows us to query keycards early in the auction (mitigating some of the perceived risks).Responder clearly dictates that game will be played in hearts or NT, and promises exactly 5 hearts. His balanced shape should also be apparent to opener since he has methods of showing other 4 card suits in addition to hearts (ex. stayman followed by Smolen, 3♣ or 3♦ after tranfe) . Were responder to insist on hearts (promising at least 6) he could bid texas, followed by 4NT Roman Key Card Blackwood.

With a strong, invitational 5332 hand, my preferred structure allows a rebid of 2♠ as above. This establishes the trump suit before going to the trouble of locating key cards. For me it is fairly basic to the use of RKCB (or G) that we establish the trump suit first. In this way I have a basic issue with launching on a 5332 hand. If spades is one of our 3 card suits, it might be that any of the 5 strains is best and in many cases we can discover this by looking at shape first.

Notice that the issue is not one of not having a side 4 card suit so much as not having a 6th heart (to establish a fit). It is not that your method is unplayable, far from it, only that it was explained in such a way that I did not understand what you meant.

Now that I do get it, I will just point out 2 extra things that you might consider. First of all, I think a key card ask with a 6+ card suit is more useful and more common than with a 5332 hand. Thus, you might look to see if there is a way you can re-arrange the bids to give more space to that hand type. Secondly, and more importantly, I am guessing you have no sequence devoted to starting a cue sequence with a strong one-suited hand. This for me is a very important part of a NT structure, much more important than getting key card asks below 4M on any hand type.

 monikrazy, on 2013-September-17, 12:34, said:

Your second issue is with how the auction would be likely to proceed after the queen-ask of 4♠, and whether responder might query the queen without the other keycards.

My issue was with posting an auction simply as RKC and then including a sequence that is so unusual that I have never seen it before with explanations that make it look as though a bid has been missed out. The point about making a queen ask missing one key card was to point out one obvious disadvantage of this captaincy change. The truth is that I love unusual methods and would have liked you to point out what you were doing to see if I could take any inspiration from it. I often get inspiration for new ideas of my own from such posts.

 Mbodell, on 2013-September-17, 23:44, said:

To be clear, my understanding of standard (partially based on a thread on here 3 or 4 years ago), is that transfer to a major and then 5nt does not invite 7. Instead it says pick between 6M and 6nt. This is different than 1nt-5nt directly (which asks to choose between 6 and 7). I don't think transfer and then 6nt makes sense, as you should want to allow 6M as a contract.

That was my understanding of Standard too, although when playing Texas it is also logical to use this sequence as invitational to 7 and Texas followed by 5NT as "pick a small slam". By a similar thought process, a transfer followed by 6NT could be played as "pick a grand slam", although that is not really necessary when you can simply raise partner's response over 5NT. It is tough to come up with something for Texas folowed by 6NT - perhaps AKQJxxx with Ax in each side suit as a picture bid? I I did have such an agreement, I would be holding my breath after making the bid hoping partner could remember the conversation about it from 20 years earlier. In practical terms, I agree that these sequences just do not exist.