[dickiegera]

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2♦ is transfer
4Nt is 1430 RCB
5♣ is 1 or 4.
4NT bidder has 4 keycards so he knows it is 1.
5♦ is Queen ask
5♥ shows no Queen

Is 5NT a sign off? or asking for Kings?


NT opener actually had the Queen and forgot how it answer.
Made 7NT.

[mike777]

Just to back up for a second, 4nt is not rkc....that would help clarify the rest of the auction. It is standard to play 4s here as rkc.

If you must play 4nt as rkc here then you should tell us how you want to play 5nt.

[GreenMan]

I would not call kickback "standard", at least not in the I/A forum. I agree that 4NT shouldn't be ace-asking, though; that (or 4♠ if you do play kickback) should come after a Texas transfer.

Since responder could have passed 5♥, then 5NT must mean "pick a slam", offering a choice between NT and hearts.

[mike777]

GreenMan, on 2013-September-11, 18:45, said:

I would not call kickback "standard", at least not in the I/A forum. I agree that 4NT shouldn't be ace-asking, though; that (or 4♠ if you do play kickback) should come after a Texas transfer.

Since responder could have passed 5♥, then 5NT must mean "pick a slam", offering a choice between NT and hearts.

NOt kickback convention


4s is pretty standard as rkc on this auction
4nt is pretty standard as quant here.

Very surprised people don't play 4nt here as quant raise of nt here as standard.

[wyman]

Texas-4n pretty std rkc here. 2d-4n std quant

[GreenMan]

mike777, on 2013-September-11, 18:55, said:

NOt kickback convention


4s is pretty standard as rkc on this auction
4nt is pretty standard as quant here.

Very surprised people don't play 4nt here as quant raise of nt here as standard.

In my circles, one-over RKC = kickback. And it is standard, if by that you mean most of the experts play it. In the ACBL that's not what the word means.

[kayin801]

Since no one else actually answered your question:

If 4NT is key card then you're pretty committed to playing in hearts and partner could easily pass 5H. Therefore 5NT looks like asking for a choice of slams; responder might have been trying for grand if you had the Q but without the Q 6NT could be better.

Seems weird to play this as a grand try if you were interested in the heart Q and got a negative response.

I do agree with others that 4NT should be a quantitative invite with exactly 5 hearts, especially if Texas is available, but this way isn't unplayable.

[dickiegera]

mike777, on 2013-September-11, 18:55, said:

NOt kickback convention


4s is pretty standard as rkc on this auction
4nt is pretty standard as quant here.

Very surprised people don't play 4nt here as quant raise of nt here as standard.

I play kickback with a few partners but this particlar partner forgets and therefore wishes not to play kickback.

I was East and held

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What would be better biding on my part not playing kickback?

[mike777]

dickiegera, on 2013-September-11, 20:09, said:

I play kickback with a few partners but this particlar partner forgets and therefore wishes not to play kickback.

I was East and held

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What would be better biding on my part not playing kickback?

again 4s is not meant to be the kickback convention here.


It is standard that 4nt is quant on this auction

If you want to play 4nt is always bw ok....maybe 5nt should always be king ask?

--------


as for the actual hand...once pard does not super accept(4) I guess I would just blast to 6nt....and yes it may go down.

[TylerE]

mike777, on 2013-September-11, 18:55, said:

NOt kickback convention


4s is pretty standard as rkc on this auction
4nt is pretty standard as quant here.

Very surprised people don't play 4nt here as quant raise of nt here as standard.

4NT as natural is std.
Around here, expert standard is 1N-noise- 4♣ by responder is RKC Gerber for either the suit responder transferred to, or the suit opener showed after a stayman auction.

Has the extra advantage that you can stop in 4M quite often (but not always)

[lycier]

2 ♦ -- 2♥ ,and then 4nt=quantitation
4♦ --- 4♥,and then 4nt=RKCB

I guess the meanings of 5nt is invitational hand for grand slam with extra longths of trump ♥,right?

[BillHiggin]

lycier, on 2013-September-12, 02:00, said:

2 ♦ -- 2♥ ,and then 4nt=quantitation
4♦ --- 4♥,and then 4nt=RKCB

I guess the meanings of 5nt is invitational hand for grand slam with extra longths of trump ♥,right?

I tend to refer to the BBO ADV fdd card for estimates of what "standard" four suit transfers are. This is not perfect (and I don't know that a perfect standard exists), but it seems to match what I see most experts do when they are not playing with a regular partner.

That source agrees with your suggestions for transfer then 4N.
For 2 level transfer then 5N, the meaning is "pick a slam, 5H"

With the given hand, the "pick a slam, 5H" option would be my choice if I thought partner would understand (which is not that likely in most casual partnerships with less than real experts).
IMO, the hand is a little too good for 2 level transfer then 4N as a slam invite with 5 hearts. It is close, but holding 4 key cards we can be sure that partner will lean towards rejecting the invite (In my experience, they tend to get conservative when they hold so few keycards themselves).

[helene_t]

Presumably responder has an 8-card suit so he doesn't need the queen for grand slam but asked for it just in case opener could show a king in addition to the queen of hearts. Now, 5NT is some kind of king asking.

[lowerline]

dickiegera, on 2013-September-11, 18:02, said:

---

2♦ is transfer
4Nt is 1430 RCB
5♣ is 1 or 4.
4NT bidder has 4 keycards so he knows it is 1.
5♦ is Queen ask
5♥ shows no Queen

Is 5NT a sign off? or asking for Kings?


NT opener actually had the Queen and forgot how it answer.
Made 7NT.

5nt following 4nt RKB shows that all keycards and the queen of trumps are present and asks if partner can bid 7. If partner cannot bid 7 he will bid side suit kings so you might be able to bid 7.
However, in your sequence 4nt is not RKB, but a natural quantitative slamtry.
Your hand is good enough to drive to 6. I would have bid 5nt over 2♥ asking partner to pick a slam. 6♦, 6♥, 6♠ and 6nt are all possible contracts.

Steven

[blackshoe]

Out of curiousity if 1NT-2♦-2♥-4♠ is RKCB for hearts, and 4NT in the auction 1NT-4♦-4♥-4NT is also RKCB for hearts, what's the difference? Just heart length?

[wyman]

Usually the fmr is voidwood (s void).

[TWO4BRIDGE]

dickiegera, on 2013-September-11, 20:09, said:

I was East and held

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Just bid small slam yourself.
Opener has to have the rest of the Kings for his opener ( especially with no ♥Q ) opposite your 17 hcp.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

dickiegera, on 2013-September-11, 18:02, said:

---

2♦ is transfer
4Nt is 1430 RCB
5♣ is 1 or 4.
4NT bidder has 4 keycards so he knows it is 1.
5♦ is Queen ask
5♥ shows no Queen

Is 5NT a sign off? or asking for Kings?

Suppose Responder wanted to sign-off in 5NT, could that be achieved by bidding 5S over the 5H reply ? ( I think that is the way it was done eons ago ).
Or 5S could be a K-ask .

[Zelandakh]

There are so many alternative ways of following up to RKCB that we really need to have more information before answering. Here are some possible meanings that might be agreed for 5NT in this sequence (assuming that you had agreed 4NT to be RKCB):

- asking for kings, presumably with (very) long hearts.
- pick a slam, asking Opener to choose between 6♥ and 6NT, or possily even 6m with a long minor.
- trump length ask, asking if Opener has a 3rd heart to offset the lack of the trump queen.
- to play, although I cannot think of a hand that would actually bid this way.

FWiiW, a good scheme here would probably be:
5♠ = king ask
5NT = pick a slam
6♣ = trump ask


Finally, you can solve this earlier in the auction by adopting a mix of transfers and skip bids over 2♥. In this method, 2♠ becomes the equivalent of a 2NT rebid, effectively asking Opener about their strength and heart length but can also contain additional hand types such as a slam-going 5332 hand. You can bundle other additional hand types in here too. Whether you do or not, you get a more controlled auction than being forced to make a large jump rebid. You can play this in combination with Texas transfers to get even more options.

[BillHiggin]

Zelandakh, on 2013-September-12, 08:23, said:

Finally, you can solve this earlier in the auction by adopting a mix of transfers and skip bids over 2♥. In this method, 2♠ becomes the equivalent of a 2NT rebid, effectively asking Opener about their strength and heart length but can also contain additional hand types such as a slam-going 5332 hand. You can bundle other additional hand types in here too. Whether you do or not, you get a more controlled auction than being forced to make a large jump rebid. You can play this in combination with Texas transfers to get even more options.

IMHO, this is incredibly bad advice to give to a player who is confused about when 4N is blackwood! I would never recommend this relay to less than expert players (well, I would never recommend it period) as it will create issues with super accepts.