[Kungsgeten]

Hi! We're trying out a Swedish Club system, and 1M is 5+ major with 11-16 hcp (so basically the same as precision). What continuations would you recommend after this?

Alternatives I've considered is:

• Kaplan Inversion (or perhaps awm's method of 1H-1S; 1NT showing diamonds/balanced and 1H-1S; 2D showing a raise).
  
• Natural 2/1 GF with a forcing NT
  
• Natural 2/1 semi-GF (unless suit is rebid) with some kind of Bergen Raises (3C 4-card raise, 3D limit raise with 3 card support), non-forcing NT
  
• Ambra inspired (2C relay, transfer raise (bad raise or GF with a suit), 1M-2M constructive, using 2NT as limit+ with 4-card support and 3m as INV, non-forcing NT)
  
• 2C GF relay, 1H-2D = good raise, 1H-2H = bad raise, 1S-2D = Hearts, 1S-2H = good raise, 1S-2S = bad raise. 1M-2NT limit+ with 4 cards
  
• Gitelman-Moss inspired (2/1 GF, forcing NT, 2NT natural GF, lots of trump support raises)

Kaplan Inversion is compatible with all of these, and is something I'd like to try out. The others, I do not know. We've used 1M-2C full relays before, but we play mostly MP and it takes a long time resolve and leaves less time for card play. I like the Ambra style of having a GF relay with not quite full resolution, but also having the alternative to use natural methods. Both Ambra and Gitelman-Moss however is perhaps better suited for wide-range openings?

Any suggestions are appreciated!

[Endymion77]

Here's what I've played after a Precision 1M opening (5+, 11-16):

1♥ - 1♠ - standard 4+s, 6+, round force
1M - 1NT - round force, can be artificial
1M - 2♣ - natural, game force
1M - 2♦ - natural, game force
1♠ - 2♥ - natural, game force
1M - 2M - constructive raise (8-10, 3 card support)
1M - 2NT - game force, balanced or semi-balanced hand, 4+ support
1M - 3♣ - 7-9, 4 card support
1M - 3♦ - 10-11, 4 card support
1M - 3M - preemptive
1M - 4M - preemptive
1M - 3NT - 13-15 balanced without 3+ hearts/4+ spades (16+ goes through a 2m response)

1♥ - 2♠ - undisclosed splinter with a void, 2NT relay
1♥ - 3♠ - splinter with a singleton (11-13)

1♠ - 3♥ - undisclosed splinter with a void, 3S relay
1♠ - 4♥ - splinter with a singleton (11-13)

1M - 4♣ - splinter with a singleton (11-13)
1M - 4♦ - splinter with a singleton (11-13)

After 1M - 2M we play 2-way game tries:

1♥ - 2♥:

2♠ - relay, short suit game try
2NT - help suit game try in spades
3♣ - help suit game try in clubs
3♦ - help suit game try in diamonds

1♥ - 2♥
2♠ - 2NT:

3♣ - short suit game try in clubs
3♦ - short suit game try in diamonds
3♥ - short suit game try in spades

Same after 1♠ - 2♠: 2NT relay (short suit game try, 3♣ rebid then 3♦ = diamonds, 3♥ = hearts, 3♠ = clubs), 3x - help suit game

Italian style cue bids below 4NT, RKCB, exclusion blackwood, etc.

[Endymion77]

It's simple and mostly natural, it's good especially if you're moving from a 2/1 based system to a forcing club system. Later you can switch to an artificial 2♣ response to 1M to cover many of the strong responses.

[Kungsgeten]

Actually we're moving from Moscito to a more natural system with a two-way club (11-13 balanced or 17+). The structure looks fine.

[Free]

I would basically do the same like after a precision 1M opening.

What's your NT range? With my precision partner we play 14-16, and frequently upgrade good 13 counts so that we can play a semi forcing 1NT response. As a consequence we play 1NT relatively often opposite an inv partner with 3 card fit:
1NT = semi forcing (includes weak or INV 3 card raises)
2♣ = GF relay
2♦ = GF, 6+♦ or 5♦-3+M
1♠-2♥ = GF, 5+♥
2M = constructive raise (around 8-10 with 3M)
1♥-2♠ = weak, 6+♠
2NT = invitational raise (usually 4M, around 11-12HCP)
3m = invite with good 6+m
1♠-3♥ = invite with good 6+♥
3M = mixed raise (around 5-10 with 4+M)
1♥-3♠ = splinter
3NT = 3334m choice of games
4m = void splinter
1♠-4♥ = void splinter
4M = to play

What you do after 1♥-1♠ is entirely up to you. We just rebid natural, 1NT shows 11 to bad 13, 2m is natural, and we don't raise on a 3 card ♠. After 1M-1NT we pass with balanced hands, bid 2m with 4+ cards,...

[Kungsgeten]

Our NT range is 14-16. Your structure looks fine Free. My partner is not very keen on including 3 card raises in a non-forcing 1NT response though. My suggestion so far is:

1M--
1NT = Non-forcing
2C = Relay. a) GF, usually 5+ clubs or (semi)bal b) Limit raise with 3-card support (11-12) c) INV against 11-13 bal
1H-2D = Bad raise (about 4-7) or GF with 5+ diamonds
1S-2D = GF with 5+ hearts or semi-weak with 6+ hearts (about 6-9)
1S-2H = Bad raise (about 4-7) or GF with 5+ diamonds
2M = Constructive raise, 8-10 with 3 card support or perhaps somewhat weaker with 4 cards
2NT = INV+ raise with 4 card support
3m = Invitational
3M = Mixed raise (but we might use preemptive instead, I do not know)

[rbforster]

Lots of stuff works here. 2/1 GF if fine. Semi-forcing NT and SAYC style inv+ 2/1s are fine, but require more agreement on followups. If you want to be fancy, you can play first step inv+ relay, or a more widely legal 2C GF relay with transfers for the other 2 bids. In most of these, jump bids can be Bergen or similar support raises (minisplinters, fitted GFs, Jacoby, etc).

I think it's just a question of your style and regulation restrictions, if any.

[mgoetze]

I'll recommend the same as I would when playing "natural" (except you don't need Gazilli so it's even better): non-forcing 1NT, 2♣ GF with clubs or GF balanced or invite with 3-card support, 2♦/♥ nat GF, 2NT INV+ 4-card support, 3♣/♦ nat INV.

[Free]

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-August-30, 05:26, said:

Our NT range is 14-16. Your structure looks fine Free. My partner is not very keen on including 3 card raises in a non-forcing 1NT response though. My suggestion so far is:

1M--
1NT = Non-forcing
2C = Relay. a) GF, usually 5+ clubs or (semi)bal b) Limit raise with 3-card support (11-12) c) INV against 11-13 bal
1H-2D = Bad raise (about 4-7) or GF with 5+ diamonds
1S-2D = GF with 5+ hearts or semi-weak with 6+ hearts (about 6-9)
1S-2H = Bad raise (about 4-7) or GF with 5+ diamonds
2M = Constructive raise, 8-10 with 3 card support or perhaps somewhat weaker with 4 cards
2NT = INV+ raise with 4 card support
3m = Invitational
3M = Mixed raise (but we might use preemptive instead, I do not know)

I really dislike the 2-way weak raise/5+♦ calls. Limited openings allow you to have "quick in quick out" auctions. Note that my structure is completely geared towards this end (1M-1NT can be passed, 1M-2NT-3/4M, 1M-3m invites, 1M-4M dropdead,...). Using 2-way raises however completely goes against that idea. Moreover if you really want to raise with such weak hands (which isn't a good idea) you should put up the pressure instead of giving opps extra chances to intervene or balance.

The advantage of putting the invites with 3 card support in 1NT is that you get to play at 1-level with 22-23HCP, while the alternative is to play 2 levels higher in your fit (unless you have a way to stay at 2-level ofcourse). Putting invites in the ♣ relay to stay low does too much damage to the relay imo. With really distributional raises I can still bid 2NT as an exception, so playing 1NT with a fit is usually a very good spot (values, source of tricks, and you only need to make 7 tricks).

Also the 2NT as INV+ isn't very useful. With minimum GF hands you just want to bid 4M. So using 2NT as either INV or slam interest is better than to bid 2NT on every inv+ hand.

[phoenix214]

I would suggest playing 2/1 GF, cause that is quite good.
A must is to play 1M-2M as constructive. You can even extend to bidding 2M as an invite with 3 card, and when playing 1NT as forcing also allows you to find double fits for game, without surpassing 2M Playing 2M as basic 6-9, especially in 1♥-2♥, your saying to opps- Please bid!
Another positive thing to do is to make so that responding 1/1 is from 0 hcp not 6 or any other point count. It doesnt hurt for limited openings because pard has a maximum of 16, so they might have game.

[Zelandakh]

I would think the default would be to play 2/1. A variation on 2/1 that I quite like is to play 1NT as GF with spades and 1♠ as a (semi-)forcing NT response. That allows you to play the same structure over a 1♥ opening as after 1♠ and avoids the problems of not establishing an imediate GF holding spades.

What I personally do after a limited 1M opening is to remove the balanced (5332) hands into 1♣/1NT and then use a relay-based method:

1♥
==
1♠ = INV+ relay
... - 1NT = min without 4 spades
... - ... - 2♣ = GF relay (then responses as directly over 1♠)
... - ... - others = nat, INV
... - 2♣ = 4+ spades
... - ... - 2♦ = GF relay
... - ... - others = nat, INV
... - 2♦ = max, 4+ clubs, GF (Note: includes 0544)
... - 2♥ = max, one-suited, GF
... - others = max, 4+ clubs, GF
1NT = weak with spades, NF (Note: weak hands usually bid 4 card suits up-the-line, so possible canape)
2♣ = weak, 4+ clubs, NF
2♦ = weak, 5+ diamonds, NF
2♥ = weak raise
higher calls = various 4+ card raises


1♠
==
1NT = INV+ relay
... - 2♣ = min without 4 hearts
... - ... - 2♦ = GF relay (then responses as directly over 1NT)
... - ... - others = nat, INV
... - 2♦ = 4+ hearts
... - ... - 2♥ = GF relay
... - ... - others = nat, INV
... - 2♥ = max, 4+ clubs, GF (Note: includes 5044)
... - 2♠ = max, one-suited, GF
... - others = max, 4+ clubs, GF
2m = weak, nat, NF (Note: weak hands usually bid 4 card suits up-the-line, so possible canape)
2♥ = weak, 5+ hearts, NF
2♠ = weak raise
higher calls = various 4+ card raises

For my system, the relay route effectively divides hands between 10-13 and 14-17. For your tighter openings you get a very well-defined 11-13 or 14-16 within the 2 ranges. After a weak response, because there are no balanced hands in the opening, Opener's 2NT rebid is free. I use this as a good 3 card raise of Responder's suit, effectively taking care of the 6-3 issue. Whether that makes good sense with your tighter limit I am not sure; but I am not sure if there is anything better since Opener surely needs a good hand to get so high after a weak response.

[gordontd]

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-August-30, 03:18, said:

Hi! We're trying out a Swedish Club system, and 1M is 5+ major with 11-16 hcp (so basically the same as precision). What continuations would you recommend after this?

Alternatives I've considered is:

[list]
[*] Kaplan Inversion

The version of this that was used in what was known as "Cambridge Precision" was that the 1S response was equivalent to a forcing NT, but could have up to four spades. The 1NT response showed five or more spades. 1H-1S-1NT showed four spades - ie a Flannery hand.

[rhm]

 gordontd, on 2013-September-04, 02:05, said:

The version of this that was used in what was known as "Cambridge Precision" was that the 1S response was equivalent to a forcing NT, but could have up to four spades. The 1NT response showed five or more spades. 1H-1S-1NT showed four spades - ie a Flannery hand.

So you would rarely be able to stop in 1NT after a 1♥ opening bid.
Being able to stop in 1NT would be my primary objective of essentially switching the meaning of 1♥-1♠ and 1♥-1NT.
Not being able to rebid 1NT after 1♥-1♠ with 5♥332 looks wrong to me.
Admittedly you might miss a 4-4 fits in spades that way without Flannery, but this handtype is rare.
One serious drawback of this inversion is, that opponents can double 1♥-1♠ to compete more easily in spades or indicate a lead with little risk.

Rainer Herrmann

[gordontd]

 rhm, on 2013-September-05, 06:04, said:

So you would rarely be able to stop in 1NT after a 1♥ opening bid.

You could still stop in 1NT (because of the limited nature of the 1♥opener) but on different hands. Two other things that are relevant in weighing this up are the increased frequency with which players open 1NT on balanced hands with a 5cM, and the fact that many have already given up the ability to play in 1NT by agreeing to play a forcing 1NT response.

[mikestar13]

 gordontd, on 2013-September-04, 02:05, said:

The version of this that was used in what was known as "Cambridge Precision" was that the 1S response was equivalent to a forcing NT, but could have up to four spades. The 1NT response showed five or more spades. 1H-1S-1NT showed four spades - ie a Flannery hand.

Thanks for that info! I have played the method but didn't know it came from Cambridge Precision. A modification I have sometimes played is that 1NT could be 4 good spades that are eager for a 3 card raise, while a more normal 4 spades bid 1♠, showing 0-4 spades.

[Kungsgeten]

Thank you for all the tips! Partner didn't like the structure I suggested before, so I suggested another (more natural) one. Most of it is taken from Revision Club, but with a few modifications.

1S--
Pass = Could be 2-card support up to say 8 hcp
1N = Forcing. Frequently 3- or even 4-card support which can not make a stronger raise. At most invitational (but then no support).
2C = GF with: balanced hand, 1-4-4-4 or 5+ clubs
2D = GF, 5+ suit
2H = GF, 5+ suit
2S = Invitational with 3-card support. About 10-12 hcp
2N = Invitational or slam interest with (usually 4+) support
3CDH = Invitational Jump Shifts
3S = Mixed raise
3N = 10-13 splinter
4CDH = 14-16 splinter
4S = Wide range, no slam interest

After a 2/1 response 2M is a catch-all and bids above 2M generally show extra (both shape and strength). Here's some special treatments:

1M-2X;
2NT = 4+ support and extras, even after 1M-2C
..3C = Asks for shortness
..Other = Natural. Bidding a new suit by a 2C responder would show 4-cards in the suit bid and slam interest.
Raise = 3-card support after 1S-2H, 4-card support minimum after 1M-2D, extras and 5-5 after 1M-2C.

1M-2C;
2D = 4+ clubs and minimum.

Over 1H I suggested Kaplan Inversion, and otherwise the same principles as over 1S:

1H;
1S = "Forcing NT" with 0-4 spades, possibly constructive 5 spades and 3-card but too weak to invite. At most invitational (but then no support).
..1N = Balanced or 4+ diamonds
....2C = Invitational relay or natural weak
......2D = Minimum with diamonds
......2H = Minimum balanced
......2S = Max with diamonds
......2N = Max balanced
....2D = Preference or natural weak. Opener passes with 3+ diamonds or bids 2H with 5-3-2-3
..2C = 4+ clubs
..2D = 4+ spades
..2H = 6+ hearts
..2S = Extras with 4+ spades and 6+ hearts
1N = 5+ spades. Invitational if 6+ spades
..2C = 4+ clubs or 2-5-3-3
..2D = 4+ diamonds
..2H = 6+ hearts
..2S = 3+ spades
..2N = 4+ spades and extras
..3S = Good min (ca 13-14) with 4-card support and shortness in a minor
2C = Same as over 1S. Note that it contains balanced GF hands with 4 spades.
2S = 6+ spades, less than invitational, about 0-8
3S = 10-13 splinter
3N/4CD = 14-16 splinter
4H = Wide range

[akhare]

 Kungsgeten, on 2013-September-09, 07:24, said:

Thank you for all the tips! Partner didn't like the structure I suggested before, so I suggested another (more natural) one. Most of it is taken from Revision Club, but with a few modifications.

1S--
Pass = Could be 2-card support up to say 8 hcp
1N = Forcing. Frequently 3- or even 4-card support which can not make a stronger raise. At most invitational (but then no support).
2C = GF with: balanced hand, 1-4-4-4 or 5+ clubs
2D = GF, 5+ suit
2H = GF, 5+ suit
2S = Invitational with 3-card support. About 10-12 hcp
2N = Invitational or slam interest with (usually 4+) support
3CDH = Invitational Jump Shifts
3S = Mixed raise
3N = 10-13 splinter
4CDH = 14-16 splinter
4S = Wide range, no slam interest

In case forcing 1N and 2/1 GF isn't your cup of tea, the IMPrecision responses to 1M offer an (IMO superior) alternative:

http://www.cs.ucla.e...IMprecision.pdf

[awm]

The IMprecision link is old and we have switched to a simpler structure. However, our issue with 2/1 GF is not that our openings are limited but that we open light. If you open a lot of 9s and 10s then you either reserve 2/1 bids for 15+ hands (making them quite rare) or you bid a lot of awful games... or you don't play 2/1 GF.

The original post seemed geared towards sound limited opening (12-15 was mentioned) in which case 2/1 GF is fine (2C GF relay is arguably better if you can handle the complexity).

[akhare]

 awm, on 2013-September-09, 16:46, said:

The IMprecision link is old and we have switched to a simpler structure.

What prompted the switch? The structure looked pretty good and it will be interesting to know about the flaws (memory load perhaps?) and the replacement.

[awm]

We switched because:

1. We wanted to open some 5332 10-11 hands and needed to fit them somewhere.
2. Memory load.
3. Awkward sequences esp. for some 5431 patterns with 3-fit.
4. We decided it is really valuable to have 2-level GF; sequences like 1S-2C-2H were otherwise just really bad.
5. We did some sims on 2M (5-2) vs. 2nt vs. 3m (4-4 or 5-4) and discovered some interesting things.

On the last, the first observation is that if we truly have no 8-card fit and 5431 opposite balanced, the double-dummy advantage of 2M over 2nt is very small. Single-dummy we find that 2nt is easier, so we are happy in 2nt on these.

The second observation is that with 5431 opposite balanced with 7 combined in openers major and 8-9 in a side minor, 2M scores better than 3m or 2nt; this is more significant at MP but is also true at IMPs. Thus we want to play 2M (and not 3m) on these hands.

The third observation is that on 5431 opposite balanced without an 8-card Major fit, the presence of a side 8-9 card minor fit does not significantly improve our game chances (it does effect which game is best).

Here's what we play now:

1M-2m... openers new suit rebids natural except 1S-2C-2D also includes 10-11 balanced. Reverses show extras except 1H-2D-2S. 2M rebid is NF and includes all other mins. 1M-2x-2nt either balanced 12-13 or 6M too good for weak two. Openers 3x raise is GF; openers jumps show varieties of 5-5 and 6-4 fitting hands.

The following are GF asking bids:

1S-2m-2H-2S
1H-2C-2D-2S
1S-2C-2S-2nt
1H-2C-2S-2nt
1H-2D-2S-3C
1H-2m-2H-2S
1S-2H-2S-3C
1M-2x-2nt-3C

1S-2C-2D-2H asks clarification but is not always GF.

We have fairly symmetric continuations.