[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-25, 05:25, said:

Err - how ? unless you're going to lose some other hands or play Walsh relays (which in the version I would use this hand has insufficient suit quality for).

Heh. We had Walsh Relays, but as you say, this suit is well below "broken suit" with some really nice support for a 5cM.

[Trinidad]

SteveMoe, on 2013-February-25, 00:54, said:

I would venture 3♣ Puppet Stayman, then raise 3M to game. Over 3♦ I rebid 4♣ and over 3N I bid 5♣.

If partner would respond 3♦, I would bid 4♦ to make him bid his 4 card major.

Rik

[SteveMoe]

aguahombre, on 2013-February-25, 01:29, said:

Yeh, I tried that. The problem was 3C Puppet, then 4C was defined as slammish and I didn't know whether I wanted to do that or 3C, then 5C. Interesting you choosing differently over 3D than over 3NT. (Because 3D shows a major and you wanted to go slammish?)

Some context: I play 4♣ as game invitational in this sequence - protecting a possible misfit / wasted values in the other minor. We play 1N-P-3♥/♠ as splintering for minors with a 3-card major fragment. Playing 4-suit transfers, transferring to minors shows no interest in hearing about partner's 4 or 5-card major. Keeps things simple, even if this might not be optimum.

3♦ response to Puppet might encase a 2-card ♣ holding, while 3N is less likely to do so (3=3=5=2 only). So I can afford to bid game directly. Really hard to judge working points here - few good tools...

One more point - I use Puppet to find partner's 5-card major, not to find a 4-4 fit. If I do not hold a 3-card major I do not use puppet. I know that allows for more information leakage, but the inferences left to partner are rich and important.

What do you think and how do you approach this issue?

(Aside: with one partner I play 1N-P-3♦ as 55 GF in the minors (no 3-card major fragment); so 1N-P-3♥/3♠ as 3 card major fragment with 2, 1 or 0 in the other major - a fusion of the minor splinter slam try and the balanced Anti-Lemming game try invented/promoted by Alan Truscott. It works! .. and it eliminate the opponent's double as a suggestion for sacrifice...)

[SteveMoe]

Double post deleted

[aguahombre]

SteveMoe, on 2013-February-25, 19:27, said:

One more point - I use Puppet to find partner's 5-card major, not to find a 4-4 fit. If I do not hold a 3-card major I do not use puppet. I know that allows for more information leakage, but the inferences left to partner are rich and important.

What do you think and how do you approach this issue?

Justin, I believe, and others use the 3C/1NT puppet with 4-2, etc in the majors ---mentioned in another thread.

We don't. But we do use it in a way most do not. In addition to 4-3, 3-3, and 3-less, we might use it with strong 2-2 in the majors. 1NT-3NT is alerted and removable.

Using 3C with, say, 4-3-2-4 and game values gives us the shot at the 5-3 fit which a regular 2C would not.

[JLOGIC]

SteveMoe, on 2013-February-25, 19:27, said:

I know that allows for more information leakage, but the inferences left to partner are rich and important.

For example?

[SteveMoe]

JLOGIC, on 2013-February-25, 22:51, said:

For example?

op cit response #23...partner knows I am 33, 43, or 53 in Majors with game values. No other holdings possible.

[han]

Let me make a guess.

LHO leads the 3 of spades, you have J64. Whoa, if partner has two small spades they could take the first five tricks in the suit and you'd be down off the top!

Suddenly you realize, partner wouldn't bid puppet without at least one 3-card major, and clearly he didn't have 3 hearts or he would have supported. How do you feel now?

Yes, you know it: rich and important.

[SteveMoe]

aguahombre, on 2013-February-25, 22:24, said:

Justin, I believe, and others use the 3C/1NT puppet with 4-2, etc in the majors ---mentioned in another thread.

We don't. But we do use it in a way most do not. In addition to 4-3, 3-3, and 3-less, we might use it with strong 2-2 in the majors. 1NT-3NT is alerted and removable.

Using 3C with, say, 4-3-2-4 and game values gives us the shot at the 5-3 fit which a regular 2C would not.

Thanks Dave. I have some catching up to do.

[aguahombre]

May I assume "Dick" is a complimentary term for a person in Cincinnati?

[SteveMoe]

aguahombre, on 2013-February-25, 23:54, said:

May I assume "Dick" is a complimentary term for a person in Cincinatti?

No - a mistake on my part Dave - please forgive...edited error out above

[aguahombre]

I knew that. Another feeble attempt at humor, here.

[SteveMoe]

JLOGIC, on 2013-February-25, 22:51, said:

For example?

Thanks to Dave I searched and found your piece on Puppet at http://justinlall.co...er-a-1n-opener/
Nice solution. Looks easier that what I'd been using. Thanks!

[JLOGIC]

SteveMoe, on 2013-February-25, 23:46, said:

op cit response #23...partner knows I am 33, 43, or 53 in Majors with game values. No other holdings possible.

As Han alluded to and I was trying to, this is not helpful. Responder is in control and is going to place the contract opposite a response anyways, and opener is never going to overrule it just because he knows partner has a 3 card major. All that happens is you give the opponents that info.

[Zelandakh]

aguahombre, on 2013-February-24, 09:55, said:

Would like to hear from both 4-SXf and 2-SXf about their thoughts and plan. What are the tools you will use? Only condition: direct 3-level bids, including 3C (Puppet) are Major suit oriented.

I use 2♣ as Puppet; 3♣ as natural and forcing; and 3-SXf (♠♥♣). I guess this system is regarded as too bad to consider. I agree with the point that transferring to clubs and showing diamond shortage is a better description than a natural 3♣. On the other hand, 2♣ Puppet is obviously nicer than 3♣ Puppet if you want to introduce the clubs later.

[aguahombre]

Zelandakh, on 2013-February-27, 09:24, said:

I agree with the point that transferring to clubs and showing diamond shortage is a better description than a natural 3♣. On the other hand, 2♣ Puppet is obviously nicer than 3♣ Puppet if you want to introduce the clubs later.

Unless, 2C regular, and then 3C, introduces clubs. Anyway, this particular hand surely seems to suit the 4-suit people better than us 2-suit people.

BTW: The opponents helped us to a good result on this one, so the table auction is not really relevant to the discussion of theory.