[Wayne_LV]

What do you bid?

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[JLOGIC]

3N

[maspd]

My question is "Why did S bid 3 hearts and not 3NT since that seems to be the most logical bid" but of course you are not shown South's hand so you have not been given all the information.

[JLOGIC]

Because he has long hearts.

[aguahombre]

maspd, on 2013-February-06, 08:54, said:

My question is "Why did S bid 3 hearts and not 3NT since that seems to be the most logical bid" but of course you are not shown South's hand so you have not been given all the information.

Welcome aboard.

We have forced to game, S knows we are forced to game; beyond the assumption that he has a bunch of hearts, all we need to know is that we don't and we can stop clubs. If partner pulls 3NT to (say) 4D, we will know more about what he is doing.

[ggwhiz]

maspd, on 2013-February-06, 08:54, said:

My question is "Why did S bid 3 hearts and not 3NT since that seems to be the most logical bid" but of course you are not shown South's hand so you have not been given all the information.

Give North ♥Axx and a club void is a good reason. Also North may have a 6th spade and steer us into 4 of them with a sketchy club holding.

Meanwhile, 3nt shows what we have.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

If partner has long ♥, why didn't he preempt ? ( perhaps too strong but not enough to open 1H or perhaps too weak, but enough to respond 1NT.

Anyway, 3NT on this hand might be near solid...if he has something like:
x
K 10 x x x x
x x x
K Q x

( looking at 2s, 4d, 3c ...not needing a Ht trick )

... but then he might have bid 3NT himself .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We also have seen this type of SJS hand before where a new suit ( 3H here ) is an advance cue for the 2nd suit : ♦

[fromageGB]

3♥ should not be a long suit, as opener has already shown a 5x5x. 3♥ is either
(a) stops sufficient for NT, but poor club stops, or
(b) control for a diamond slam, with long diamonds.

We assume the first, and bid 3NT. If he has the second, he will bid 4♦ and I will ace ask with 4♥. I am not worried about a spade loser.

[Cyberyeti]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-07, 05:36, said:

3♥ should not be a long suit, as opener has already shown a 5x5x. 3♥ is either
(a) stops sufficient for NT, but poor club stops, or
(b) control for a diamond slam, with long diamonds.

We assume the first, and bid 3NT. If he has the second, he will bid 4♦ and I will ace ask with 4♥. I am not worried about a spade loser.

What do you do with a 1813 6 count ? Particularly if you play 4♥ as kickback in diamonds over 3♦.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-07, 06:17, said:

What do you do with a 1813 6 count ? Particularly if you play 4♥ as kickback in diamonds over 3♦.

Would that eight ♥ hand OPEN with a 4H preempt ?

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-February-07, 06:37, said:

Would that eight ♥ hand OPEN with a 4H preempt ?

Not necessarily, x, xxxxxxxx, A, Qxx ? or the equivalent 1714

[fromageGB]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-07, 06:17, said:

What do you do with a 1813 6 count ? Particularly if you play 4♥ as kickback in diamonds over 3♦.

Good question! I can't recall having had an 8 card suit in this situation, but would not play 4♥ as ace asking. A hand that can take control of the auction when it has bid an initial 1NT must be a beast so rare as to be impossible. It would need 3 top tricks in the other suits, as well as stuffing in diamonds - no, I don't think so. If such a hand exists, it can advance cue 3♥.

So I guess the answer is 3♥ then 4♥ over 3NT, if very weak, or 4♥ over 3♦ with a stronger hand fancying game. So when I said "3♥ should not be a long suit", it should really be "3♥ should not be a long suit unless it is a REALLY long suit".

[Cyberyeti]

fromageGB, on 2013-February-07, 06:41, said:

Good question! I can't recall having had an 8 card suit in this situation, but would not play 4♥ as ace asking. A hand that can take control of the auction when it has bid an initial 1NT must be a beast so rare as to be impossible. It would need 3 top tricks in the other suits, as well as stuffing in diamonds - no, I don't think so. If such a hand exists, it can advance cue 3♥.

So I guess the answer is 3♥ then 4♥ over 3NT, if very weak, or 4♥ over 3♦ with a stronger hand fancying game. So when I said "3♥ should not be a long suit", it should really be "3♥ should not be a long suit unless it is a REALLY long suit".

Last time the ace ask happened to me it wasn't a passed hand, something like Jx, x, Qxxxxxxx, Ax 1♠-1N-3♦-4♥-4♠-5♦-6♦ partner had AKxxx, Qx, AKxx, Kx or similar.

Also is there any reason why 3♦ can't be 5341/5350 where you want to play in hearts opposite 5 or 6 of them ? I really do think 3♥ should be natural.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Another thought....
With a decent Ht suit, wouldn't a passed hand Respond 2H ??
p - 1S
2H

I hope Wayne takes us out of our misery and posts Responder's hand .

[TWO4BRIDGE]

JLOGIC, on 2013-February-05, 16:00, said:

3N

JLOGIC, on 2013-February-06, 09:04, said:

Because he has long hearts.

3NT may just be a good spot since I believe Responder has a ♣ honor or two ...

But why does he have long ♥ since, as Dealer, he didn't open a weak 2 or 3, .... and over partner's 1S he couldn't find it in himself to bid 2H as a passed hand .

After:
p - 1S
1NT - 3D
3H .... did he all of a sudden wake up to find he has long ♥ ??

All this leads me to believe that 3H is an advance cue for ♦.
Heck, 6D might just might be in the picture .

Buttttt, we will never know Responder's hand since Li'l Wayne has forgotten about this post.

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-February-10, 14:08, said:

3NT may just be a good spot since I believe Responder has a ♣ honor or two ...

But why does he have long ♥ since, as Dealer, he didn't open a weak 2 or 3, .... and over partner's 1S he couldn't find it in himself to bid 2H as a passed hand .

After:
p - 1S
1NT - 3D
3H .... did he all of a sudden wake up to find he has long ♥ ??

All this leads me to believe that 3H is an advance cue for ♦.
Heck, 6D might just might be in the picture .

Buttttt, we will never know Responder's hand since Li'l Wayne has forgotten about this post.

I wouldn't put too much stock in this line of reasoning. Regardless of vulnerability, some of us have some relative suit quality for our 1st seat preempts and/or won't do it with high spots scattered in the other suits. Also, some of us don't bid 2/1 by a passed hand just because we have length.

[fromageGB]

If the initial pass had not happened, ie dealer = West, then it is definitely more interesting. I take North to be either
(a) stops sufficient for NT, but poor club stops, or
(b) control for a diamond slam, with long diamonds and almost a 2 over 1, or
© extremely long hearts, 8+, and will rebid them over 3NT
Opener has to rebid 3NT I think, to cater for these, and responder will clarify.

In the given bidding, I can't imagine a hand initially passing that would have enough to want to play in a diamond slam or in 4♥, so the only remaining alternative is
(a) stops sufficient for NT, but poor or no club stops.

[JLOGIC]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-February-10, 14:08, said:

3NT may just be a good spot since I believe Responder has a ♣ honor or two ...

But why does he have long ♥ since, as Dealer, he didn't open a weak 2 or 3, .... and over partner's 1S he couldn't find it in himself to bid 2H as a passed hand .

After:
p - 1S
1NT - 3D
3H .... did he all of a sudden wake up to find he has long ♥ ??

All this leads me to believe that 3H is an advance cue for ♦.
Heck, 6D might just might be in the picture .

Buttttt, we will never know Responder's hand since Li'l Wayne has forgotten about this post.

By long I meant 5+. I was trying to be vague since not all hands with 5+ hearts would bid 3H but apparently I was confusing.

There is a simple answer to why partner didn't bid 2H over 1S, it still shows values even as a passed hand. A 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 count would not bid 2H. Also, not all hands with 6 hearts open a weak 2, as you said the suit might not be great. This depends on your preempting style I guess.

You are making this one too complicated, we might have a 5-3 heart fit or a 6-3 heart fit, or no club stopper where a 5-2 heart fit is our best game, that is why 3H is natural.

[Wayne_LV]

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In our system, 4NT is to play if no trump suit has been agreed upon and 4NT is not a jump bid.

3NT makes and 4NT is -1, thus sparking the disagreement. The swing on the board was 10.53 IMPs.

For those wishing to see the traveller, use this link: http://online.bridge...&username=maspd

[aguahombre]

3H is silly.