[barsikb]

Dealer North

---

[Zelandakh]

1♥ - 1♠;
3♣ - 4♣;
4♥ - 4NT;
5♦ - 6♣

seems like a reasonable auction if you are far enough along to play RKCB. If playing ordinary Blackwood then I think South has to give North a chance to take control:

1♥ - 1♠;
3♣ - 4♣;
4♥ - 4♠;
4NT - 5♦;
6♣

In some ways this is something of a harder problem when playing a more advanced system, since then North's 3♣ rebid might well not show a real suit.

[barsikb]

Thank you, Zelandakh

4NT-5D RKCB 1430?

[Zelandakh]

 barsikb, on 2013-February-05, 09:14, said:

4NT-5D RKCB 1430?

Yes, adjust to 5♣ if you prefer 3041.

[Cyberyeti]

1♥-1♠
2♣-2♦

What happens next depends on your version of 4SF, if it's FG you can just rebid 2♥ and develop slowly, if not ...

3♥-4♣

Now 4♦ for me would ask for aces keycard style, but for N/B

4N-5♦(one or 4 of 5)
5♥(Q♣?)-5♠(Q♣/K♠)
6♣

If partner denies Q♣ you have to play a somewhat inelegant 5N. I don't think I can find 6N which is better than 6♣ (if clubs break you have 12 in no trumps, if they don't, hearts might break).

[aguahombre]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-05, 10:53, said:

1♥-1♠
2♣-2♦

What happens next depends on your version of 4SF, if it's FG you can just rebid 2♥ and develop slowly...

Yep.
1H-1S
2C-2D!
2H-3C establishes clubs as trump and shows slam interest if the artificial 2D (4th suit) was game forcing. And certainly, the other guy (opener) will want to be more than cooperative with any slam probing after that.

It is not easy for N/B pairs to be this patient and confident that their bids will not be passed. Exactly what the continuations and agreements could be after this start of the auction might be worthy of a new thread in I/A.

[barsikb]

"5♥(Q♣?)-5♠(Q♣/K♠)" Can you explain please?

Thank you all for the answers.

[Cyberyeti]

 barsikb, on 2013-February-05, 17:32, said:

"5♥(Q♣?)-5♠(Q♣/K♠)" Can you explain please?

Thank you all for the answers.

After a RKCB response of 0/3 or 1/4 the next suit up if not the agreed trump suit asks for the queen of trumps, the responses to this are not entirely standard (some people play next suit up denies, some play cheapest bid of trumps denies, we play lower of NT/cheapest bid of trump suit denies) so 5♠ shows the Q♣ and also the king of spades 6♣ would be Q♣ and no other K (or a red king or two and not prepared to commit to 6N), 5N would deny Q♣.

This may seem inefficient and ambiguous, but we would be making all these bids rather lower with clubs agreed as we'd have used 4♦ rather than 4N as the ace ask, so our auction would proceed 4♦(ace asking)-4♠(1/4)-4N(do you have Q♣)-5♦(yes and K♦)-6♣ but this is beyond N/B.

[Zelandakh]

Cyber, agua, you guys would really not GF with the North hand after a response? It is 8.5 PTs and 4 losers! I understand staying low if your jump shift might be made on a 2 card suit but we are talking N/B system here so 3♣ is always going to be real. I think we should try to show posters in this forum how wrong it is just to count points and this is a prime hand for upgrading beyond "a 17 count" despite the singleton jack.

[Cyberyeti]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-February-06, 02:09, said:

Cyber, agua, you guys would really not GF with the North hand after a response? It is 8.5 PTs and 4 losers! I understand staying low if your jump shift might be made on a 2 card suit but we are talking N/B system here so 3♣ is always going to be real. I think we should try to show posters in this forum how wrong it is just to count points and this is a prime hand for upgrading beyond "a 17 count" despite the singleton jack.

No I just play a system where if partner passes 2♣ he has something like Kxxxx, void, QJxxx, xxx and I don't want to be in game

[Wackojack]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-February-05, 09:07, said:

1♥ - 1♠;
3♣ - 4♣;
4♥ - 4NT;
5♦ - 6♣

seems like a reasonable auction if you are far enough along to play RKCB. If playing ordinary Blackwood then I think South has to give North a chance to take control:

1♥ - 1♠;
3♣ - 4♣;
4♥ - 4♠;
4NT - 5♦;
6♣

In some ways this is something of a harder problem when playing a more advanced system, since then North's 3♣ rebid might well not show a real suit.

Yes I agree that the game forcing rebid of 3♣ is better than the normally non-forcing rebid of 2♣. This particularly so for a beginner. However, there is an error in the first auction. The 4NT bidder is south so North has to show 2 key cards minus the Q♣.

There is another way of looking at this from the POV of a beginner. After:
1♥-1♠
3♣ -?
Yes, if 3 ♣ is clearly understood as a game force then 4♣ is not passable and is in fact a slam try. Responder might, however, just in case partner might pass, just make the practical bid of 6♣. Yes, you need partner to have 2 aces for 6 to be on. If you are playing 0314 or straight Blackwood you will in any case find yourself too high if partner has only 1 ace. Mind you, partner should not make the game force opposite a possible 5 count with only 1 ace.

[Zelandakh]

 Wackojack, on 2013-February-06, 08:35, said:

Yes I agree that the game forcing rebid of 3♣ is better than the normally non-forcing rebid of 2♣. This particularly so for a beginner. However, there is an error in the first auction. The 4NT bidder is south so North has to show 2 key cards minus the Q♣.

In my book, ♥A and ♣AK makes 3. YMMV.

[Wackojack]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-February-06, 09:11, said:

In my book, ♥A and ♣AK makes 3. YMMV.

OH! mea culpa

[Fluffy]

Zel's first auction is fine, would only modify it at MPs to try to play better scoring slams.

[barsikb]

The clearest to me was jumping to 3♣to GF
What about 3♦after that to show five spades? Not necessary as partner unlikely to have three to fit?

[Zelandakh]

Bidding 3♦ over 3♣ is certainly possible, especially if you play a system where Opener has not promised 4 clubs here. It does not show 5 spades though; rather it is a "grope", a bid asking partner to describe their hand further and denying the ability to make a more descriptive call. In this instance it is possible, for example, to play that a direct 4♣ raise shows 5 card support while 3♦ followed by 4♣ shows only 4 card support. This kind of discussion is moving beyond N/B though - it is more of an I/A level topic.

[barsikb]

Thank you Zelandakh,

to me 3♣ here is 99% showing 4 Clubs

So no need to show five spades and no method to do so, right?

[Zelandakh]

Responder has definite slam interest after Opener's 3♣ rebid. Even if Opener has 3 spades, it is likely that clubs will play better. It is really just a matter of checking key cards to determine if we want to be in 6 or 7. Fluffy's point about looking for better scoring slams at MPs is correct of course but, once again, I would suggest that it is enough in an N/B discussion just to reach a making slam confidently.